Re: makesyscalls (moving forward)

[Johnny Billquist <bqt%softjar.se@localhost>]

On 2020-06-15 15:39, Kamil Rytarowski wrote:
> On 15.06.2020 15:21, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > Anyway. Who here does not modify their path at login anyway.
>
> The path has to be readily available for pkgsrc users with unprepared
> environment.
>
> However if we install the utility into /usr/sys (similar to /usr/games),
> we can use a full path to the program and it will be good enough (for
> me). Are there other programs that would be moved to this directory?

Using explicit paths is sometimes a good idea no matter what.

Obviously I think something like config should be moved out.

I would tend to look at /sbin as where tools required to manage the 
system or get information which "normal" users commonly would not care 
about. /bin would be where things a large portion of ignorant users 
programs could be found. Even things like compilers would make sense to 
have there, as also things like passwd. However, ifconfig for example I 
would keep out. If can be used even by normal users, in order to look at 
interface details, but it's outside of what I think a naive user would 
go for. Same for arp.

However, things needed to build kernel and userland is neither normal 
user tools, nor system administration tools in the normal sense, so 
neither /bin, nor /sbin really feels like the right place.

/sys would make more sense, but I'm not totally clear about if there are 
aspects I haven't thought about yet.

(And I'm currently saying /bin, /sbin and so on, without adding the 
corresponding /usr/... paths. Traditionally, the things under root were 
things you expected to need to be able to do without even having file 
systems mounted and so on, and I like that distinction. So I guess most 
things related to system building would only need to be in /usr/sys, if 
that was the path we'd go for.)

> I have got a feeling that too many programs already rely on specific
> kernel internals so making a distinction would only confuse people and
> impose unclear conditions what belongs where. fsdb(8) or crash(8) are
> definitely not going to be very usable with mixed kernel and userland
> versions.
>
> Something we possibly agree upon is that makesyscalls(1) would not be a
> tool for administer a computer/server, so /usr/sbin /sbin is not a good
> place.

I agree that /sbin also does not feel natural for makesyscalls. If I 
were to have to choose between /bin or /sbin, I would however go for 
/sbin. I have less issues creating kindof weird views for a system 
admin, which I expect should know a little more about what he is doing 
and why, than an ignorant user, for which I think a cohesive and 
meaningful environment is the most important. As such, something like 
this under /bin would just be a very confusing and not useful tool for 
that user.

It all boils down to what the purpose of the different directories are. 
And I cannot agree that things under /sbin should somehow only be tools 
for root, or required that you are root. It is in a different directory 
than /bin so that it don't have to be in the path of various people. If 
we are not interested in that path separation/distinction then we do not 
need the separate directories at all. /sbin for tools that mainly system 
admin tools sits in, do make sense. Even hinted at, if you read sbin as 
system binaries.

But there are just some tools that are very specific to kernel 
development, and that is really a kind of binaries for which I don't 
think we have a good place right now.
/libexec is another interesting place, but I consider that to be a place 
where binaries that are invoked by other binaries are located. And your 
description of your planned use of makesyscall makes it sound like you 
are planning to use it directly, and not just have it as a binary 
invoked by other tools...

  Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt%softjar.se@localhost             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol