Hauke Fath <hf%spg.tu-darmstadt.de@localhost> writes: > On 7/23/21 4:24 PM, Greg Troxel wrote: >> With X11_TYPE, there are basically two valid setups: >> >> X11_TYPE=native and x sets installed (or equivalent on other systems). >> This does not imply the server set is installed and it does not imply >> anything is cofigured. >> >> X11_TYPE=modular, and X11-world things will be provided from pkgsrc, >> with either native X11 installed and ignored or not installed > > I would like to see the equivalent of an X11_TYPE=none, since X11 is > not "similar to many other big things" as you see it. X11 is (until, > maybe, Wayland) the only graphics platform we have, and as such it > plays a special role as enabler for GTK, QT and friends. I still don't see it as structurally different. Lots of things are big enough that people don't want them, and many other things depend on them. Agreed (wayland aside) that X11 is needed by pretty much everything GUI-ish, but I don't see this changing the basic nature of things. Let's imagine a world where NetBSD never put X11 in base, and we just had modular X11 in pkgsrc. There's be no switch; things that depend on programs that can be labeled as part of the X11 family would just depend on them. This is similar to how gtk, qt5 etc. are now. But, if you want to propose that, please do so in a separate thread. For now, pkgsrc has no such mechanism. >> You seem to live in a world > > Maybe tone it down a bit? My daily workplace driver is a NetBSD X11 > workstation, and has been for almost 25 years... Sorry, I was just trying to characterize where it sounds like you are coming from, which is objecting to what I see as very small bits of code that, yes, won't end up being useful, when that approach (optionizing everything that anyone might not want to install), if applied to everything in pkgsrc would, I think, lead to tremendous complexity. And, objecting to these unneeded bits, not on their weight or complexity, but because of their relationship to X11. >> where you leave X11_TYPE=native and want to >> have absolutely nothing from X11 on your system. The former is a >> misonfiguration and I don't think we should torque pkgsrc around to >> accomodate it. > > I've tried both. I found myself playing whack-a-mole where at every > turn, a package attempted to sneak in X11 dependencies despite setting > PKG_DEFAULT_OPTIONS=-x11. While I understand you don't want to have any program that comes from the x11 world, a few showing up does not strike me as a terreble problem. I end up (on my X11 NetBSD main computer) with lots of packages that I don't even really know what they do, becuase something I wanted depended on them. > X11_TYPE=native, especially after the change that started the thread, > gives a clear error, so I can look at my options. Setting > X11_TYPE=modular, when I clearly do not want X11 bits on a server > installation, feels like a misconfiguration to me. It's not a misconfiguration, because X11 is currently not optional in any pkgsrc-wide sense, just as gtk, qt, boost, and so on aren't optional. (I realize you would like it to be fully optional.) Yes, some packages have options, but many do not. > Nothing religious on my end, this is a purely pragmatic decision. That's of course shades of grey; it feels to me like a really vigorous objection to small bits of code because it's associated with some other larger (but still really not that large these days) code. I can see the point of applying this to every dependency of everything and wanting not to have it if it isn't doing something useful for you. I think that leads to a huge number of options to let a small number of people avoid a small number of packages, while everybody has to deal with a pkgsrc tree with many more options. (I personally just install X sets on servers, so that all of my machines have the same X11_TYPE=native config, and packages built once for 9/amd64 can be installed on any of the machines. If I were to go on a debloating rampage I think this would be pretty far down on the list.) Greg
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