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Re: Deciding on wich variant(s) of OpenBLAS library to install

On 02/20/18 15:09, Dr. Thomas Orgis wrote:
Am Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:13:37 -0600
schrieb Jason Bacon <>:

On third thought, it might be a good idea to install both pthreads and
openmp libs, based on what you reported about known issues with one or
the other.  This would provide more flexibility for binary dependent
packages - they can use whichever one works best.
In our discussions about this around here, we also are picking up again
on the idea that BLAS/LAPACK should be runtime-interchangeable. This is
what Debian-based distros do at least with the serial version (see
[1]). They don't seem to have cblas on the radar, though. Or lapacke. I
would like to have a solution that covers them all. Fedora/Red Hat is
stuck in the planning phase [2] for a consistent approach since some
years now.

But generally, the notion that one should build packages so that they
link to generic

libraries is something we should also discuss here. Since especially
the choice of serial or parallel BLAS will depend on the application at
hand and also on what the user currently wishes to do (imagine an R/Python
user that has differing R/numpy scripts that demand
serial/parallel/pthreads/openmp openblas because of a combination with
multiprocess parallelization methods).

When we build all packages agains the reference netlib code, a
mechanism to select the actual and friends to use at
runtime would enable the use cases without multiplying the needed
package builds. There is symlink management for the system
administrator, so that

	$PREFIX/lib/ → $PREFIX/lib/blas-openblas-serial/

as a site default after building openblas. This (or a variant of
switching snippets) is what the alternatives system does in
Linux distros.

For our use case, we would also offer environment modules that prepend


to LD_LIBRARY_PATH (a variable that we normally painfully avoid to
touch, these special runtime lib modules being the exception) and hence
give the user the run-time choice of which blas lib to present to the

This would mean that pkgsrc packages would all depend on the netlib
code only, that providing the C headers and fallback versions of the
libs. No added complexity of build configuration.

Do you think that is feasible and desirable in pkgsrc? We'd only need
to ensure that the version numbers of netlib and openblas, atlas match
so that the binaries are really interchangeable.

This approach would need some work writing libblas/liblapack/… wrapper
libraries for openblas (atlas) that have the proper SONAME set and
preferrably only export the symbols of the common API. Debian has done
this, apparently. This is a neat hack that still leaves people free to
link to the full libopenblas if they want to access API specific to
This sounds like a huge drain on man-hours, especially in a system supporting multiple platforms. The fact that RHEL has been stuck in the planning phase should tell us something. I suspect it will be difficult to get working and prone to breakage as libraries are upgraded. I think it's worth investigating, but for now, I would have each dependent package simply select one library (libblas, libatlas, libopenblas, libopenblas-openmp, etc.) that's
known to work with it.

   I don't think it's
important to follow the libopenblasp naming convention from other
package managers.
They seem to be oblivious on how to actually use that one, though. It
looks like it is not part of the usual concept of switching blas
implementations. It should be. It is just a variant of libblas.
I'm not sure it should be.  As you pointed out before, some dependents work better with one library and others with a different one.  Again, this is going to soak up a lot of man hours that we could be using to create and maintain other important packages. I favor an approach the produces reliable dependent packages first and foremost. This will allow us to focus more on new development and less on firefighting. Improving performance on a per-package basis would be my next priority, followed
by interchangeability.  I think this approach is more sustainable.
The main thing is providing a stable serial lib in and offering options for parallel libs to anyone willing
to deal with the complexities.

I'd leave out cblas.h and keep that in a separate cblas package.
Well … the cblas wrapper functions are also part of libopenblas. So the
conflict is always there, just ignored. I am also not quite sure if
cblas/lapacke is supposed to be compatible like the base Fortran libs
([3] … unclear).

It would be more manageable to have all of the netlib code in one
package, methinks. Version always in sync. Generally, I see a nightmare
trying to figure out which combinations of lapack A and blas B are
actually compatible (any lapack might work with atlas, but I am not
sure how much benefit one gets of building a lapack together with atlas
as that has _some_ of that API implemented?). The consensus, which
looks sensible to me, seems to be that one builds blas/lapack in some
combination and then uses those only together, not mixing with installs
from other sources. This would be reflected in the netlib stuff being
installed in


from one package … well, or at least from separate packages that are
painfully kept in sync in how they handle things.

I imagine the headers also being installed from that reference package
… well, maybe best also as symlinks to begin with.

	$PREFIX/include/cblas.h → $PREFIX/include/blas-netlib/cblas.h
	$PREFIX/include/lapacke.h → $PREFIX/include/blas-netlib/lapacke.h

look at wip/plink, which uses cblas, blas, and lapack.  We should be
able to substitute openblas for blas and leave the rest as-is.
But openblas = blas + cblas + lapack + lapacke …

I think it's a good idea to install pkgconfig and cmake files if it's
straightforward and doesn't cause any problems.
The rub is this, of course: They are strictly only relevant to one of
the openblas builds we install, if we install several. Several library
configurations likely will need differing pkgconfig/cmake files. At
least the library path to use needs to differ … or we have some search
path games just like for runtime-selection of the blas to use.

We might indeed get away with omitting all those extra files in favour
of simply installing the libraries and the specific headers into


(to be able to pull in openblas' cblas head after all, to get the full
interface including openblas_set_num_threads()). I am not yet sure how
far the headers will differ with different configurations. I am also
eyeing the possible option of I64 builds. So, we are really talking


matching each other. One could do that with the pkgconfig files, too.
An environment module (or could append the correct paths
to find those, too.

Generally, the approach of having stuff just link to generic seems more and more attractive to me. Assuming that Intel
keeps up being compatible with the GNU compilers, I can even switch
between openblas and MKL at runtime to compare things (see [4]).

I think we should start with a concept along those lines and implement
BLAS fun in pkgsrc The Right Way™, before we get into a mess with
packages depending on differing sets of BLAS libraries. I absolutely
want to avoid the situation where I might link something that uses
libsomeblas together with something that uses libotherblas … possibly
with conflicting parallel runtimes. Switching BLAS fully at runtime or
not at all … do I get an Amen? Or at least a good rebuttal? ;-)
The problem I see is that the various BLAS implementations are not freely interchangeable in reality, even though they are meant to be.  Leaving it to the end-user to switch between
them at run-time is going to cause problems and generate a lot of PRs.

I think things will go much more smoothly if the choice is left to the packager rather than the end-user. This way we don't have to test (blas packages) * (dependent packages) different configurations and retest
every dependent package every time *any* blas package is updated.  I think
this is a good example of the Pareto principal.  An optimal solution here is an enormous amount of work and we can produce a very good solution with a small fraction of the effort.  It's a matter of prioritizing limited manpower.  I have a long list of new scientific packages in the queue that I think would
be more valuable to the pkgsrc community than interchangeable blas binaries.

I think the important thing is to make all implementations available, without install conflicts.  I'm agnostic
about how this is done.

As long as I can make a dependent package use any of the available blas implementations and I can install
them all on the same cluster, I'm happy.



Alrighty then,




PS: One nice thing for pkgsrc about the run-time choice is that the
only combination that we officially support and absolutely have to keep
working in any client application is the one with netlib. All other
choices and their pitfalls are up to the admin and user.

Earth is a beta site.

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