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Re: NetBSD 8, non-desktop and desktop uses

nia <> writes:

> On Wed, Aug 03, 2022 at 11:55:49AM -0400, Greg Troxel wrote:

>> The hypothesis remains that there are no people that use NetBSD-8 with
>> big desktop-type GUI programs that are obtained from TNF builds.

There is still no counterexample to that statement.

>> And therefore that we don't need to care e.g. that firefox might not
>> work in recent official package sets.
> Saying it's just firefox is doing the brokenness a disservice.

You are right that "just firefox" is off, but that's not what I said.  I
really meant "e.g."  and thought about that phrasing.

> Let's look at what's actually failing in the latest bulk build for -8:

ok, and I am looking at what is on in the
x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All directory, as well as i386.

> - lots of random python libraries

8/amd64 has 1491 py39-* packages.  9/aarch64 has 1515.  The 9/amd64
build has 1426 this minute, and it's obviously not finished.   So
apparently 24 are missing.

> - fortran [scietific python, etc...]

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  126932 Jul 24 01:02 amd64/8.0_2022Q2/All/blas-3.10.1.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  114860 Jul 27 23:32 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/blas-3.10.1.tgz

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  3468436 Jul 24 01:24 amd64/8.0_2022Q2/All/lapack-3.10.1.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  3011388 Jul 27 23:45 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/lapack-3.10.1.tgz

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  5309116 Jul 24 07:16 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/py39-numpy-1.22.4nb2.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  5318028 Jul 28 00:20 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/py39-numpy-1.22.4nb2.tgz

[scipy I don't find]

> - poppler

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  7446036 Jul 24 07:25 amd64/8.0_2022Q2/All/poppler-22.04.0.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  7263644 Jul 28 00:26 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/poppler-22.04.0.tgz

> - librsvg

desktop, more or less.  But on x86_64:

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd    162896 Jul 20 13:09 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/librsvg-2.40.21nb8.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  13093316 Jul 16 21:06 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/librsvg-2.54.4.tgz

There is some humor there about 'modern' and 80x bloat.

> - nodejs 

enormous.  unportable upstream; not much we can do.   Older versions are there:

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  7471492 Jul 12 02:09 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/nodejs-12.22.12nb1.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  7810332 Jul 27 13:29 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/nodejs-14.20.0.tgz

> - graphviz

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  4068352 Jul  9 13:26 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/graphviz-2.50.0nb5.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  4483728 Jul 16 18:36 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/graphviz-2.50.0nb5.tgz

> - haskell

unportable upstream; not much we can do.  Not on i386, but:

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd   70939864 Jul  8 20:45 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/ghc-7.10.3nb7.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd   78441444 Jul 12 04:03 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/ghc-8.0.2nb6.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  149137664 Jul  8 20:38 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/ghc-8.10.4nb4.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  115155444 Jul 27 01:51 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/ghc-8.4.4nb6.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  143452332 Jul  8 16:26 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/ghc-8.8.4nb6.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  147869380 Jul  8 16:06 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/ghc-9.0.2nb1.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  153370528 Jul 24 08:09 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/ghc-9.2.1nb2.tgz

and pandoc is there too.

> - gcc7

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  61861916 Jul 27 23:28 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/gcc7-7.5.0nb5.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  59762296 Jul 24 00:54 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/gcc7-7.5.0nb5.tgz

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  67170524 Jul 10 07:52 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/gcc8-8.4.0nb5.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  69024484 Jun 29 17:23 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/gcc8-8.4.0nb5.tgz

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  67058236 Jun 30 17:36 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/gcc9-9.3.0nb7.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  65079584 Jul 25 14:53 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/gcc9-9.3.0nb7.tgz

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  76646492 Jun 29 03:47 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/gcc10-10.3.0nb1.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  78897172 Jun 30 20:04 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/gcc10-10.3.0nb1.tgz

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  89135768 Jul  1 12:02 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/gcc12-12.1.0.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  91517720 Jul  5 15:28 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/gcc12-12.1.0.tgz

> - R

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  47744040 Jul 28 00:04 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/R-4.2.0.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  47856880 Jul 24 04:35 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/R-4.2.0.tgz

> - erlang (bugs in Xen; -9 has a xenclock driver that works around it)

ah, the only 'build bug' we have found so far.

> ... and now the "desktop" stuff:
> - xfce
> - mate
> - qt5
> - fltk

squarely "big GUI desktop", especially qt5.  But the others are present.

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  1912 Jul 26 18:27 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/xfce4-4.16.0nb3.tgz

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  1948 Jul 26 19:56 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/mate-1.24.1nb1.tgz

-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  1155436 Jul 10 09:57 i386/8.0_2022Q2/All/fltk-1.3.8.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 pkgmastr  netbsd  1154188 Jul 17 02:39 x86_64/8.0_2022Q2/All/fltk-1.3.8.tgz

> The stuff that works is mostly the simplest (just C, no C++ or only
> really old C++ standards) headless packages, your standard
> apache/php/nginx/postgres job, which people can easily build
> themselves.

We are 99.9% talking about "what builds on the branch", and have
identified only erlang as being troubled in this particular bulk build

> I'd say it'd be most honest to discontinue NetBSD 8 builds rather
> than continue uploading really broken ones.

For i386/8 there are only 1285 fewer packages than i386/9, so literally
95% of the packages for 9 are available on 8.  Sure, there are some
issues and many would matter for various people, but it's not "really
broken" in a structural sense.

Aside from erlang, the "build" is not broken, is what I take away from
what you said.  What has happened is that the upstream world has made
changes that cause their packages to no longer build on old systems, and
nobody, including the pkgsrc community, has fixed those upstreams.

I don't think it's dishonest to have builds of what works.  Really you
have said that "8 is something that should no longer be used by anybody
who wants to run code maintained by people who think it's ok to require
recent compilers".  I agree but the nature of free software is that
people are welcome to run it.

I also don't see it as a bug in pkgsrc if something doesn't build in
pkgsrc if it does not build when manually following the upstream build

If you think the statement in the announcements should be extended,
please feel free to send text.   Perhaps

  Note that many packages do not build on NetBSD 8 and other systems
  with non-recent compilers.  Users of those systems are advised to
  check, as each branch is released, if what they would like to run is
  still buildable.  (Most people contributing to pkgsrc run newer base

would be better?

Are there really people running 8 who do not understand what is going
on?  I sent a message inquiring about that, and so far *zero* people
have admitted publically or privately to using the 8 builds on  Yes, a few people are running 8 but none of them has
said that things they need aren't available; they are all well aware of
this and running moderate server-type stuff.

I don't think we should formally de-support NetBSD 8 prematurely.  What
support in pkgsrc really means is that we don't allow infrastructure
changes that break 8.  Upstreams breaking 8 is not something we can
control, and we don't hold back updates.  People who want to add
optional old versions can do so, and there's a bit of that.

All in all I don't think it's a good use of time to worry about this too
much.  Old operating systems age out for running new software -- that's
just how the world is.   People who want to struggle against that can,
but I think they should work on fixing upstreams.

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