Re: Desktop NetBSD needs your help

[Dima Veselov <kab00m%lich.phys.spbu.ru@localhost>]

On Sat, Feb 07, 2009 at 11:59:53PM +0300, Aleksej Saushev wrote:

Have to say a word in protection of NetBSD goals and der Mouse personally :)

> > I don't think NetBSD is appropriate for novice user desktop use, and I
> > see that as about as much of a problem as it is that my hacksaw isn't
> > appropriate for driving screws.  The world has plenty of screwdrivers;
> > I'd much prefer NetBSD focus on making a good hacksaw (largely because
> > I don't see anyone else making hacksaws nearly as good).
> 
> How do you expect new users to appear then? Do you think that NetBSD
> users are born experts?

Reading such, I always wonder - what make people to use NetBSD and suffer from 
it's technical orientation. Tell me - why not just use any other user-oriented 
system and leave at least one system for people, who count blocks better than 
megabytes?

NetBSD is really designed for people, moved to NetBSD by their wise looking for 
really working things, proved for simplicity. If you can't understand some 
deeply technical things - don't even try and use FreeBSD or Linux.

> In particular, do you expect that newcomer learns the Guide by heart?
> Is fdisk/bsdlabel documented that well, so that it can be learnt by
> heart before installation? Is interface that good?

They definitely should know how computer generally works. You know - I believe 
NetBSD installer is the best installer in the world. Why? It is so much 
straight, blazingly fast, small, simple. All core NetBSD utilities is at most 
simple as they should be for people understanding how it works in production, 
not in a desktop play.

You wish a nice desktop or simple installer for your play with that wild 
unknown OS, meanwhile others use hundreds of NetBSD boxes, praying for noone 
coming with 'fresh' Linux-like ideas to turn it user-friendly. You just try to 
get a Volvo panel in a heavy-duty dump truck - believe, there is no choice, 
trucks wouldn't and shouldn't change their ugly look ever. They will grow 
itself, enforce wheels and enhance capacity, always charging driver to deeply 
understand what is going on.

After getting driving license you can drive any car, but you wish to drive a 
helicopter. Write your own installer for NetBSD, include the distribution in it 
and be happy.

> > Of course, like everyone else (well, except core/board/etc), I don't
> > get to dictate which way NetBSD goes except to the extent I take it
> > there.  This, I think, is largely why most of my comments about
> > NetBSD's direction have been negative, because they've all been in
> > response to people who want to change things, and what I think we need
> > to do is to stop trying to change our direction and concentrate on
> > doing well what we do well.  If you want a desktop system, you know
> > where to find it - and I use that wording despite, not because of, the
> > derogatory tone the original carried in its context.  (At work, I had
> > occasion to set up a GUI desktop, and used FreeBSD; some would see this
> > as a failing of NetBSD, but I don't, any more than I see it as a
> > failing of my hacksaw that I don't reach for it to drive screws.)
> 
> Why do you resist changes? The world has changed since 90's.
> Some things proved to be inefficient, even dangerous.
> Do you think that we should leave inefficient ones as is
> just because changes don't make you happy at once?

der Mouse was 200% right. If you need functionality - bring it by yourself, 
leave developers on their track. Things you call 'proved for inefficient' were 
really proved somewhere outside NetBSD team and users, I don't know any 
inefficient mechanism in NetBSD. Some talk about it, they call such a names, 
NetBSD is old, inefficient, anything else. These people turned Linux in a bunch 
of visual bugs, where you cannot understand what is going wrong, when needed 
something unusual, and then have to post an error to google - if there one more 
guy got it. I have a really big collection of 'user-friendly' modifications, 
which were really destructable for the system, because covered real things 
under ugly interface.

> One of NetBSD advantages noted by newcomers is its high-quality
> documentation, and it is documentation quality what can be checked
> by novice users first. Without good documentation you can't tell,
> why NetBSD is better than Linux.

Yes, it have high-quality documentation. Using NetBSD I used documentation many 
times and everytime found an answer. It is always that sort of answer I need - 
low-level to understand what really happen.

-- 
Sincerelly yours