Re: (native build & other issues - Was: xvfb not built on vax...)

[Johnny Billquist <bqt%softjar.se@localhost>]

David Brownlee wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
> > Antti Kantee wrote:
> >
> > > Just do it.  No point in having kludges in the tree to make native
> > > build "fast" on the vax or wasting time even thinking about it.
> >
> > Ooo. Thank you for that kind though. Yes. Doing native builds on a VAX 
> > is not something we should even consider.
> >
> > The fact that native builds don't even work, and that this isn't even 
> > detectable by doing cross-builds is not something we care about either.
> >
> > In fact, why even bother with the VAX?
> >
> > I really like the way some people who work on NetBSD think... NOT!
>
>     (Note: trimmed non port-vax lists from reply)
>
>     Speed of NetBSD/vax build:
>
>     Some NetBSD users do not care about how long a vax takes
>     to build NetBSD - why is that surprising? I think you'll
>     find quite a few users on port-vax who really don't care
>     about x86, or arm, or 3d graphics support for example.

You should perhaps differentiate between NetBSD users and NetBSD 
developers. That users don't care is no surprise, and I would not expect 
otherwise.
Developers on the other hand should atleast care a little.

>     I was trying to help NetBSD be more consistant across
>     platforms; I asked about the change and listened to
>     replies rather than just going ahead and doing it.

Which I think was a very good thing, and I didn't complain about that. I 
think it might be a good thing to do, or maybe not. Not entirely sure.
However, even though VAXen don't have frame buffers, there are good 
reasons to build X anyway. You can always run applications with the 
displays remote. A nice thing with X, you know... ;-)

What do that virtual frame buffer do, by the way?

>     I would expect most people building NetBSD/vax for a headless
>     system are going to skip building x11 altogether.

No. Why should they? All (well, most) X applications are still useable 
even if you don't have a frame buffer.

>     There are quite a few 'MK*' and 'USE_*' variables that can
>     be set to disable various features in a build which can
>     speed up the build and the resultant system - such as
>     USE_INET6 USE_HESIOD USE_LDAP USE_PAM & USE_YP to name just
>     a few (full list in /usr/share/mk/bsd.README).

True.

>     Native NetBSD/vax build broken:
>
>     Some people do care about native build being broken, and
>     some have the ability to work out what is wrong and fix
>     it, and some have the time. When someone with all three
>     steps forward you can be sure their fix will be committed.
>
>     As I understand ther are two issues:
>     a) Some vax models seem to 'go to sleep' under load

Very deep sleep. As in stops altogether. Not sure if it's just some VAX 
models, or if it's just that some people haven't manage to reproduce the 
conditions.

>     b) Groff chokes building certain .ps files - I thought Brad had
>        tracked that down to a hypot issue, what ever happened with
>        that?

Very good question. I'd like to know as well.

>     Do *you* care about NetBSD/vax?:
>
>     I think one of the problems is things come up on the list,
>     and then everything tails off again for a while until
>     someone mentions it again and it all goes round again.

Definitely. And for me it feels that part of the reason for this is the 
little response received when a problem is brought up. Most of the time 
I don't see any answers at all.

>     We have send-pr, but people seem to have issues tracking those.

Not everything have been reported, but a bunch of things have too. Noone 
seems to be trying to solve them, though. It's like this list. Things 
happens in burst at random intervals. :-)

>     Could I suggest we need a central location to record the
>     current state of NetBSD/vax, what people have found and/or
>     are working on?
>
>     Can people please take a look at http://wiki.netbsd.se/vax
>
>     If you have even a little time and any interest in NetBSD/vax,
>     take a couple of minutes to add something to that page, be
>     it something you really want changed, some extra details
>     on a problem, or some trick you've found to get it installed.

Maybe that would work. I don't know. But we could try...

        Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt%softjar.se@localhost             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol