> > Just a question to be asked out of idle curiosity... Is anyone on this
> > list running NetBSD (any version of it) on one of the earlier VAX systems?
> 
> Have plans for an 8650, but that's not really such a slouch...
> 
> I have access to an 11/750 and an 11/730 too. The 11/750 have been running
> NetBSD 1.1 at one time, but that was a few years ago. I don't think it's
> running anything at the moment.

IFF it were not too much trouble to fire up the 11/750 some time, on
the 1.1, and then on the 1.4.3, and then on the 1.5, strictly for
comparisons, that might help to shed some light on the slowness
issue.  A boot timing, a compile timing of something commonly dumb
like gzip-1.2.4, and an ethernet timing of something like sending
a 10mb tarball, might be good for comparisons.

I am really expecting the OldeTyme light dainteness and speed of
the machines will drop to a crawl in 1.5, as did my MVII.

IFF, for the sake of discussion, this kind of testing indicated that
there really was a hurdle/bloat/crawl/whatever in the code, then, as
Isildur suggested, and apparently some others thought might be of
merit, perhaps a fork into a cast-in-stone end-of-the-line stable
final (or whatever) lean/mean/trimmed-to-the-bone OT-NetBSD-VAX
suite ought to be seriously considered.

We know the old machines are not going to get any faster.

We know the code and bloat (for whatever modernization reasons)
is only going to get greater (and that may not improve efficiency
any at all, especially on the old machines).

We know there is a problem, and it really ought to be fixed.

Since the VAXentoyz are such an independent, yet viably historic
lot of creatures, there may be a good case for going ahead and
finalizing, or stabilizing, or cannonizing (if one looks at it
from a ``religious'' point of view), the system, and then, after
that point, merely keep minor bug fixes and CERT advisory fixes
and that kind of thing going in the tree of this particular line.
The SOLE purpose of such a divergent line would be to optimize
NetBSD on the OldTyme machines such as MVII's and 11/750's, etc.
Also, one could make the case that a certain set of OldTyme VAX-
specific ports should be maintained, to flesh out the OldTyme
systems into something compatible with modern gear.  

The dividing line of this seems to be from 2 areas that are not
exactly the same, but similar in points.

I sense there is a real end of the line in the 1.4.3 vs 1.5
jump.  Isildur seems to be of the opinion that that line falls
from 1.4T (which includes some DMA scsi fixes but retains the
traditional monolithic rc script).  I have no problem accepting
either as a point of divergence.  I DO have a problem if nothing
is done to help rectify the situation on the older machines.
I DON'T know what the solution is or should be, as might concern
all hands aboard the good ship NetBSD, but, I AM of the opinion
that some kind of an end-of-the-line stable traditional VAX-specific
fork needs to be done, specifically tuned for the 1.0VUP and under
type of machines.  That would include the MVII, the 11/780, 11/750,
and maybe if a port might someday happen, the 11/725 machines.

Whether at some time, such action should include the early 3100
line machines, because of their inherent slowness, is an open
point.  There is pro and con for including them, since there are
a lot of them about, and we know they are also slow.  In my
hands, the 3100/M38 and 3100/M76 machines seem to handle 1.5
just fine, and for those class machines and faster, there really
is no need for a change at this point.  But, the MVII and down
machines really do need some help, before we wind up making them
last-class citizens of NetBSD.

Yeah, I know, get a faster VAX.... (I do have a lead on a big 7000
box, so maybe that might follow me home, someday).  But, many folks
don't have a faster VAX, and we need to not make those folks second
class citizens of NetBSD.  They will jump ship if we do, wringing
their hands in the air, in despair.

Anyway, those that might have an interest in a traditional VAX specific
NetBSD port suitable for the OldType VAXentoyz, do holler, and let's
see if there is enough critical mass to really make something work.
I know, I am a nobody in the crewe, and swing no weight, but, I do
raise the issue..... and it needs to be fixed.


Food for thought....
Thinking out loud....
Musing upwind in a snowstorm....
etc..... (:+}}...

Thanks

Bob