----- Original Message -----
From: J.S. Havard <enigma@sevensages.org>
To: Brian D Chase <bdc@world.std.com>
Cc: NetBSD/vax Mailing List <port-vax@netbsd.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: RIP, VAX


> >
> > > > or, we could reimplement the encumbered code, much like CSRG in the
Net/2
> > > > days did, though i'd prefer to have it basedon 4.3tahoe and not 4.4
or
> > > > reno, to have amore pure BSD, without the POSIX stuff and without
the
> > > > later sysv compatibility and so on.. :-)
> >
> > >   Oh jeez...we're not goiong down the Sokolov Road(tm) again, are we?
;)
> >
> > Yeah, plus supporting a "purer" BSD on a completely new VAX platform
seems
> > really, well, contradictory.  If you're looking for a tradional BSD
system
> > then stick to running it on the traditionally supported hardware.  I
> > understand the value and novelty of historical computing, but modern
> > hardware would be better suited to running a modern OS like NetBSD.
> >
> > Grafting Turbochannel or PCI support into 4.3BSD would just be very
wrong.
> >
> Sounds like a Quake-I player talking about Q3test, "Q3test sucks, man,
> it's not as pure.  It just isn't the same."
>
> > As far as other comments on the NuVAX thread.  I think a ROM based
> > emulator would be the most feasible approach to creating a new system.
The
> > second most reasonable being something like the using the rumored
> > Transmeta processor.  I'd actually think it'd be really cool for them to
> > implement the VAX architecture as a proof of concept, if that's in fact
> > something they intend to be able to do.
> >
> Okay, somebody with a readily available cheap motherboard out there, hack
> us up a Vax emulator to be flashed to the BIOS.  Must support netbooting,
> must be upgradable, say, by TFTP or something like that, somehow.  Make
> IDE emulate MSCP (mmm..... a 13GB drive on a vax).  Also, IDE is cheap.
> I saw a 1GB drive for $5 not too long ago.  Just to be lazy, only support
> NE2000, or a clone, well, maybe two of them (Vaxrouter?), and have them
> emulate DEQNA.  It would be more pure.  ;-P
>
> If possible, emulate a serial mux with I/O mapped to the display, where
> you can switch between them using ALT-Fn like on most PC unixes, maybe
> CTL-ALT-Fn.  The console would be bound to F1.  Have the standard PC
> serial ports appear as a 4 port serial mux.  Or maybe make it to where the
> first serial port could be the console, selectable while at the >>>
> prompt in the emu, if you want it to.
>
> I wouldn't worry about making it to where you could run an X server on it,
> or something like that, as it would take too much code, probably, and you
> can always set DISPLAY=somethingelse:0.0 if you want, and do your evil GUI
> stuff on another box.
>
> And just to make it more interesting, make it have a VT100-like font on
> the console.  :-)  Also, make an option to run in 80x25, 132x25, and
> 132x50, so we don't have to suffer this IBM punched card legacy 80 column
> thing.  And besides, 132x50 just displays more stuff.  Support for ANSI
> control characters would be nice.
>
> And of course, the emu must have the >>> prompt, and also must be able to
> automaticly boot.  I'm not sure exactly how the halt and other things like
> that buttons would work.

you have a turbo button,I think that just signals the cpu to turn off the
cache. I think the game port would be a good place to put buttons on. As for
a motherboard,there are boards like the sis530 based boards,they take a k6-3
and have build in video and sound.(dont know what you would use sound
for,but its there) Since you would have to support a particular board,or set
of boards,something like the sis530 ( or the slot 1/socket370 sis based
boards) make alot of sense because all the video hardware is identical.In
fact,except for the sound,I think all the 530 based boards ARE identical
which would allow one bios to do them all. Actually,there are some sis
boards that have build in network and modem as well. That would be the
perfect choice as you could use the onboard network. Since video and network
would ALLWAYS be the same,it would simplify things. When you think about it
though,while it sounds like a great idea for asthetic reasons,using a bios
might not be such a great idea. I can see many drawbacks (only works on one
board fofr one) and I cant think of many advantages over booting the code
from a hard disk.(or if you really wanted to get down to it,an adapter rom
on a card)

 Actually,thats not a bad idea,put all your code on a custom build card that
just contains a couple of rom chips. (maybe flash chips,maybe just UV prom
depending on how little work you want to do on the hardware) The board would
boot up and initialize with its normal BIOS.A pc then scans its memory for
adapter roms. It would then load your vax emulation code.The program could
be as big as you wanted. The adapter rom would then take over,and switch
into protected mode. A key sequence (for instance <alt><ctl><del><p> )would
bring up a virtual button panel for things like halt and such. The adapter
rom program would then pause for several seconds giving a count down so that
you could breing up the contril panel,and then either boot to the proscribed
device,or bring up a >>> prompt. The beauty of such a system would be that
such a card should be installable in any PC clone.

 Maybe have a build-it-yourself thing you could
> attach to the paralel port that would do that.  Vaxes shouldn't be made to
> print.  Get a print server if you want to do that.  Also, the data pins on
> the paralel port could probably be used to drive an 7 segment LED number
> display, available at your local Radio Shack.
>
> One thing that MUST be done.  We must have some "FakeVAX inside" stickers
> printed up, and maybe get a company to make us some of those little 1"x1"
> computer brand labels to put on the cases for the FakeVAX.  Maybe actually
> name it FaikVAX.  Weird spelling, it is catchy.
>
> If I could do more than a simple C program, and some fairly decent perl
> and shell scripts, I'd get to work on the thing, but I can't, so I won't.
>
> > Talking about designing and fabbing whole new VAX processors to compete
> > with Alpha and Intel chips, plus designing new systems around the
> > processor is just plain silly.  A cool idea perhaps.
> >
> And costly.  It would suck if I couldn't buy something I helped form.  :-)
>
> > -brian.
> > ---
> > Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!
> >
> >
>
> Regards,
> John Havard
>
> PS We finally got rain down here in the southern US.  Wehhoo.
>