In article <199801292150.QAA06138@glenn.CES.CWRU.Edu> you write:
> What we should really discuss publicly is how to overthrow the current
> tyrannical and oppressive government and convert this country from a
> totalitarian dictatorship into a free state where all software would belong
> equally to all citizens.

And in article <199801300533.AAA08573@glenn.CES.CWRU.Edu> you write:
> Ben Ketcham <bketcham@anvilite.murkworks.net> wrote:
> > Regardless of your opinion of the US government, I think that the
> > *owners* of the product in question, i.e., DEC (wholly-owned
> > subsidiary of Compaq though they now be) might care a little bit.

> That's true, but without this tyrannical government and its draconian copyright
> laws they wouldn't be able to do anything no matter how much they cared.

Of course, there probably wouldn't *BE* an Ultrix if there weren't
copyright laws. Ultrix was written to make money. Heck, there probably
wouldn't even be VAXen to write Ultrix *for* if there weren't
intellectual property. Why devote all that money and time to designing
the thing, if when you start producing it anyone can just produce an
identical copy (and cheaper, since they don't have to recover their
investment)?

Yes, eventually things will get done by people with other that the
profit motive.  But things happen *much* more slowly that way, and the
slowness snowballs.  Besides which, a lot of the true innovation comes
only from the people making money.  Yes, we have free Unices, C
compilers, windows systems, etc.  Many are great improvements are over
the commercial originals.  But they were all inspired by commercial
originals, written in order to make money.  GNU people like to point at
the success of the project and say "See? Free software is a success! we
don't need commerical software!".  What they fail to realize is that
free software is a success *only because of* commercial software. 
Without ying, there is no yang.  Without dark, no light.  Yes,
Cygnus makes money giving away free software.  They do it by selling
support instead.  But how many of their customers are only paying for
support because they're using the free software to generate commercial
software, or some other form of intellectial property? How many could
even *afford* to pay for support if it weren't for intellectual property?

And even the most radical GNU folks don't want an end to *all*
intellectual property. The maniefesto even states that the computer
industry should survive on selling hardware instead of software. If you
make all intellectual property void, there won't be a hardware industry
either.

Look at the state of computer technology in the former Eastern block
countries.  It was pitiful, and most of what _did_ exist was just
intellectual property stolen from the west.  Without the ability to sell
developments, the only reason the field was active even at such a low
level was in support of millitary users.  Now *maybe* you could set up a
no-intellectual-property system based on "hoarding" against other
countries or blocks of countries instead of by companies.  It'd require a
sort of Orwellian/nazistic world where countries existed primarily to
threaten other countries, and all industry exists in support of that
goal.  During the cold war, that sort-of worked for space technology
and a lot of the fallout from that. Now that the cold war is over,
NASA and defense contractors are having to look elsewhere for money (and
remember, exciting new technology is not their goal -- it's only a
byproduct of making money). Take away that source of income as well, and
*poof* -- all gone.

Heck, think about your favorite movies and wonder how many would have
been made if someone, somewhere wasn't making money selling intellectual
property.  Many great directors were in it primary for the money, and
most at least partially for the money.  Even the directors who make
films for their own satisfaction (Scorcese, for example) need money from
somebody to make them.  Either investments to make money by owning a
share of the resulting I.P., or people who got rich some other way that
almost certainly be traced to somebody somewhere selling intellectual
property.  And what of all the cameras, film processes, sound equipment,
etc.  that were invented so that money could be made by selling or
licensing the intellectual property? What about the studio facilities
that exist only because people making *lots* of money from intellectual
property can afford to pay for their use?

I'd even go so far as to say that an industrial democracy can only exist
because of intellectual property.  Hamilton knew that, though he was
fairly sleazy about reaching his goals.  The only other option is an
agrarian democracy like Jefferson envisoned.  Not necessarily a bad
thing, but how many on this list would be happy with a life of tilling
fields or shoeing horses for a living? No computers, nor even any
electricity to power them, since the technology was invented for profit. 
Assuming that the country could even continue to exist, not having been
conquered by somebody else.  It was only after the US became an
industrial leader that we became a millitary leader as well.  You need
the steel industry for guns, tanks, ships.  The chemical industry to
produce explosives and gunpowder.  The oil industry for fuel.  All of
which industries exist only because they were able to attract investors,
who were only attracted because intellectual property laws gave the a
reasonable assurance they'd see some return on their investment. 

If your revolution ever happens, I won't be able to make a living
anymore doing what I enjoy.  I'll have to find something else to do with
my time...  probably joining the underground against your wierd new
techno-neo-socialistic regieme.  (Using weapons developed, of course, by
people who made money selling the designs for them....).  Dunno what
you'll be using to fight back, since I'm sure Colt, Bushmaster, General
Dynamics, Saco Defense Industries, Barrett, etc., will be less than
thrilled when told your government will no longer be paying them, so
you'll have to take their designs under emminent domain to put into
production at the new Opoozheyeh Fabreeka Sokolova, assuming you can get
that built with what's left of industry.  On the other hand, I'm sure
they'll be happy to have several crates of product "fall off the truck"
into my side's hands, so we can put things back the way they're supposed
to be.  Cool! I've always wanted a Barrett M82.

Izhevsk Mechanical Work, Ceska Zbrojovka, et al, also would probably be
happy to supply us, having recently found out how much fun it is not
only to invent weapons technologies, but also to be very well paid for
it.  We'd make a good loss leader for them.  I guess you'll have to make
due with crap from Norinco and Polytech...  but even the Chinese are
finding out how fantastic it is to sell ideas (even if they're stealing
a lot of them...). 

On the other hand, since this is Sokolov we're talking about, authors
may be happy with the new order.  While they won't be able to charge for
their word-processings, I guess they will be able to force people to
read them in order that the author's time not be wasted.  Heck,
subjecting people to Fearless Leader's tomes on VAX taxonomy will
probably be a useful brainwashing technique for the reeducation camps. 
I can just see the average person's glazed eyes while listening to the
difference between a TZK50 and a TK50Z ;-) ["Now are you going to join
us, Tovarish, or will I have to explain to you the difference between a
DEQNA and a DELQA?"]

By the way, my last name is Galician (sort-of Polish).  I don't really
know a whole lot about those people (I'm mostly Irish/Scottish/
English/Dutch/etc.), but if they didn't have a saying something to the
effect "beware of Russians bearing new economic theories", they sure
should have one by now...

We now return you to your regularly scheduled, slightly less off-topic
mailing list. I would have redirected this somewhere else, but I can't
think of any list or newsgroup where this thread *would* be on topic.
I haven't seen overthrow-the-government-l on PAML.... :-)

[I do have to thank Michael and der Mouse, though.  It's not often that I
get to feel like a status-quo, conservative kinda guy by comparison to
someone else ;-)]

Take this with as much or little seriousness at the original post was
intended, and flames cheerily directed to /dev/null.