[Thus spake Greg A. Woods ("GAW: ") 2:43am...]

GAW: I know you're capable of maintaining your own dangerous magic tricks but
GAW: when you suggest that everyone should have an "I know better than the
GAW: software author" switch to turn off sanity checks preventing dangerous
GAW: magic, especially in a tool designed to enforce sanity and conformity,
GAW: well that's where I do think you're wrong.

As der Mouse says, that's an agreement to disagree, and I can leave it
at that.  By the same token, I am certainly free not to use sysinst
to configure my system for me, but I find the same kind of arrogance in
the programming of an installer that says "I know better than you how
to set up your system" as I find in the religious wombats who insist
that they know better than I do how my life should be lived.

In fact, this really is a religious debate, when you get down to it,
and there is no convincing a zealot.

GAW: The "Right Thing(tm)" for sysinst to do is to make it easy for experts
GAW: and non-experts alike to create safe and sane and maintainable (by
GAW: others) configurations.  Sysinst should not cater to creating unsafe or
GAW: broken configurations -- on the contrary it should strive to always
GAW: prevent such things from happening whether by accident or by intention.
GAW: Nobody forces the expert to use sysinst if and when that person wants to
GAW: break the rules that define "safe and sane" for the majority.  The
GAW: expert should know how to do what he or she needs without using sysinst.

Ah, yea, i think I said that upstairs.

GAW: Sysinst should not have a "turn off the sanity checks" feature either
GAW: because it cannot know when its user really does know what they are
GAW: doing and such a feature is just an invitation to get those who only
GAW: think they know what they're doing into trouble.  E.g. sysinst doesn't
GAW: let you change the whole disk partition(s) (and arguably disklabel
GAW: shouldn't by default either).  It's fine to give the expert some rope,
GAW: but it is not fine to force ropes with nooses ready tied in them upon
GAW: all those who have chosen to use a "rope avoidance" tool.  As an expert
GAW: you can take away some of the "rope avoidance" features of your version
GAW: of sysinst if you should so choose.

...?!

You are making no sense, and you are doing so with amazingly adept
use of both sides of your mouth.

Swords are for swordsmen, forges are for metalsmiths, and expert knobs
are for experts.  You are not always going to learn things by reading
of their dangers; sometimes you get cut, you get burned, or you lose a
configuration.  This is called, last time I looked, The Learning Process.

With a LITTLE advice, you can learn how not to get cut, burnt or zorched
as much.

However, if I go out and decide to say I'm an expert trick swordsman,
and I KNOW I'm not, the only person I'm really fooling is myself.  This
becomes evident as soon as I take off my own arm.

The point is that as long as I leave the expert switches alone, sysinst
will do everything it can to prevent me from cutting my arm off, which
unfortunately includes taking away my sword.  Now I can go and flick
the expert knob on my sysinst at the first menu item and have it throw
all sorts of flaming warnings at me, giving me every opportunity to
back out of my choices, and that's on ME if I screw up.

As far as "maintainable by others", I will stand by my statement that
the level of education should ALWAYS move up, not down:  If "others"
cannot be bothered to properly learn how to maintain a system, they
certainly have no business in doing so.  Call that elitist if you must,
for others certainly have.  But I do not believe in catering to the
dumbest common denominator.

GAW: Now if you have an argument showing that some "safe and sane for the
GAW: majority" test is not valid or correct, then that's something we should
GAW: debate with the sysinst maintainers.  :-)

Safe and sane for the majority is all well and good, but if I am forced
at any point to use a tool, I will scream blue bloody murder for a knob
that lets me say, "Yes, I know what the hell I am doing, please get out
of my bloody way."

Until that point, fine, sure, whatever, I'll go do it by hand.  No skin
off my back, really -- fdisk, disklabel, newfs, MAKEDEV, installboot, etc.
do not frighten me.  The thing that offends me that we are going to the
trouble of hiding the details from the people who could most stand to
learn from them.

GAW: 						Greg A. Woods

				--*greywolf;
--
Support Open Operating Systems -- subvert the Microsoft paradigm.