On Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 06:17:26PM -0500, Charles M. Hannum wrote:
> So it's `polite' for us to guess, based on total lack of information, 
> that they don't want this publicized?  Even though anyone with half a

No, it's polite to ask first, try to work together, then 'out' them, as
a last resort.

> David Maxwell <david@fundy.ca> writes:
> > My point is this - we don't want anyone to ever say "No way am I using
> > NetBSD, those developers are jerks."
> Well, Hell, we're already screwed by that metric.

Fair enough. 

NetBSD: We're obnoxious and have big egos because we _ARE_ the best.

> > Part of avoiding that is being
> > patient, understanding, helpful, and tolerant.
> And by never advertising the fact that people are using our software,

I never said "don't tell people ZZZ uses NetBSD if ZZZ says not to".
I said "ask first".

> > As long as it is approached
> > in a sensible manner, I have no problem with identifying users of the
> For your definition of `sensible', of course.

1 : of a kind to be felt or perceived: as a : perceptible to the senses
 or to reason or understanding
...
4 : having, containing, or indicative of good sense or reason

I would like NetBSD, and its developers to be 'percieved as reasonable
and having good sense'.

The first step in effective communication is obtaining permission.
There's no quicker way to alienate someone than to threaten them,
or persist in bugging them once they say "I don't want to talk
about it." Then you have to provide a 'win' for them.

This requires great care, since there's a fine line between
"We're gonna tell people you use NetBSD, wanna help?" and
"Would you be willing to discuss our plans to promote awareness
of the NetBSD operating system? We would like to promote your
products as well."

> > 	"Our development cycles have been greatly enhanced through the
> > 	use of the quality NetBSD code base."
> > 				 - B. Smith, VP Development, AAA Corp
> 
> Actually, I disagree.  Nobody reads tripe like this and believes it.

Nobody who knows how to read the source reads tripe like this and 
believes it. A lot of people involved in accepting the tools used
to build a product can't. See the Gateway flip-flop about the new
Amiga OS base from QNX to Linux? Purely marketing driven, even
though QNX would have a much better hope of developing a system
with some of the original Amiga OS's functionality.

It is the time-honored method of rhetoric, as taught by Socrates,
the resort to authority. For a good example, see:

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/expect/reviews.html

> What impresses people is:
> 
> 	IBM Corp, Network Station XXX
> 	Digital Equipment Corp, [blah blah]
> 
> which translates to `Fortune 100/500 companies build hardware to run
> NetBSD'.

I didn't mean to imply ZZZ wasn't a Fortune 100 company, it was
simply meant to be a generic example.

> So it's name-dropping.  BFD.  It's just like writing a resume --
> people want to see big names and important projects.

Yes, but like a resume they also want references. I could put
"I designed Eniac." on my resume - it's more useful if I can say
"I designed Eniac, and Joe smith (123-555-1212) was my manager
on that project, ask him what he thought of me."

People being willing to put their _name_ on something, is valuable.

Fred? Wow. I worked with Fred back at Thingamajig. Smartest guy
I ever met. If he says this 'NetBSD' thing is good...

> Maybe.  Maybe not.  But you're arguing about whether *someone else*
> would want us to announce it, which is something you can't possibly
> know without asking their (usually) marketing people.  And regardless,

I'd like to see us ask them.

> `runs NetBSD' should never be treated as a pejorative, as it seems to
> be in this discussion.

Not my intention. People making announcements about a company's products
can interfere with marketing plans in lots of ways.

Where I work now, we have a product that uses NetBSD (happy to talk about
it, btw, but not relevant to the discussion here). We gave a box
to a 'friendly' customer, under non-disclosure, in the Alpha development
stage, and one of their staff posted a Bugtraq announcement about
security issues in the box that were already on the TODO list, but not
in that Alpha release. Suppose we were a Fortune 100 company, and
CNN picked that story up? Working _with_ marketing people to make 
their job easier, will give us a good reputation.

> > it goes ;-) there are important timing issues. If we make it to people's
> > advantage to be involved with NetBSD, they'll hurry to bring it up
> It's already to their advantage.  But guess what?  They don't know
> that, because they don't know about the existing, proven cases.  Why?
> Because of bogus concerns like the ones you've raised.

Sorry, I was unclear. It is already to their advantage for technological
reasons. I would be happy to have NetBSD more well known so that it was
to their advantage for marketing reasons.

-- 
David Maxwell, david@vex.net|david@maxwell.net --> Mastery of UNIX, like
mastery of language, offers real freedom. The price of freedom is always dear,
but there's no substitute. Personally, I'd rather pay for my freedom than live
in a bitmapped, pop-up-happy dungeon like NT. - Thomas Scoville