Subject: Re: Something I noticed on the Yahoo site
To: Chris G. Demetriou <cgd@netbsd.org>
From: Herb Peyerl <hpeyerl@beer.org>
List: netbsd-advocacy
Date: 12/10/1998 08:48:46
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To: cgd@netbsd.org (Chris G. Demetriou)
Cc: Mason Loring Bliss <mason@acheron.middleboro.ma.us>,
        netbsd-advocacy@netbsd.org
Subject: Re: Something I noticed on the Yahoo site 
From: Herb Peyerl <hpeyerl@beer.org>
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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:48:46 -0700

cgd@netbsd.org (Chris G. Demetriou)  wrote:
 > Seriously, I think I do understand your point of view Herb (I know how
 > hard it is to get people, esp. volunteers, to do the right thing), but
 > really, how does the attitude help the problem?

The attitude is probably an indication that I've exceeded the 'best before
date' on my present position.

 > Let me preface this by thanking both you and Charles for the work done
 > on the 1.3.2 CD, and the related marketing.  (Similar thanks are due,
 > however, to others who make, ship, and try to market other NetBSD
 > CD-ROMs, or prooducts which are based on or include NetBSD and raise
 > the project's visibility.  It's not like you're the only people
 > who'ever done this kind of thing.)  Without contributions of effort
 > like that, obviously, The Right Thing never could happen.

I agree.  In my efforts, I've done everything I can to not alienate other
people who are doing marketing.

 > Basically, we need a PR Czar, somebody who's reasonably organized, a
 > not-unreasonable people-person, and who has, on average, about half an
 > hour a day, sometimes more, to devote to the cause.

I would say it takes almost consistantly more than 1/2 hour per day to
go through the necessary mailing lists and answer peoples' questions
and keep on top of conferences, shows, talks, news-agencies, etc... I'd
love to find a dedicated volunteer to help me out... As it is, I'm not
the 'Czar'.  I don't have the skillset nor the patience... But I recognize
that we need such a Czar and since none have stepped forward, I guess I'm
it.   There is an interesting parallel with the 'www' folks.  I remember
when you (cgd) did the first www pages and handed them off... Soon we
had a number of volunteers signed up to maintain the www pages... However,
nothing really happened... mail to www@ was effectively ignored... Soon,
David Brownlee stepped forward and has taken charge of the overall 
webpage and questions/requests being sent in... He has been a complete
godsend to the project as a result and I shudder to think what we'll do
when he runs out of steam or his life takes a turn and he's no longer
able to dedicate the time necessary... (This is not to minimize the
contributions of others who maintain port-specific sections of the 
webpages)...

I've found that people in general, are quick to volunteer to do something
but rarely, if ever, follow through... It's no wonder that I treat all
offers by people to volunteer to do something with skepticism... A short
time ago, someone who we'd never seen or heard of, stepped forward and
demanded to be placed in charge of the NetBSD SMP project; making 
outrageous claims as to his competence and qualifications.  When he was
told that he could gain control of the project by showing his sample
implementation, he quickly disappeared and I've not seen him again. Now,
it's true; he may actually have been the god of SMP, but I find that it's
probably unlikely...

 > The Czar should be responsible for keeping track of "PR-related
 > opportunities," things like people who are shipping NetBSD on CD-ROM,
 > etc., and coordinating so that the right events are hit, with the
 > appropriate force (if the force can be mustered).  The Czar should
 > also be given the authority to do that, or at least, the ability to do
 > it without too much delay (i.e. guarantee that people with the right
 > authority will actually respond in reasonable time).

I did this for a few trade-shows... I didn't go myself.  I just facilitated
for Charles and Jason who did actually go.  I can tell you it takes a
great deal of work and even though Usenix donated booth space for the
New Orleans conference, we still had to pony up money for electricity,
a table, a banner, etc... I had to put a few hundred dollars worth of
booth-related charges on my credit-card... We recovered that money in
CD sales, but when you have nothing to sell, it doesn't make sense for
me to spend my own money to setup a booth just so Mason can get a warm
fuzzy when he goes to the vendor booths. So why don't I just press some
more CD's so we can sell them?  I should spend all the time and money
pressing another 500 1.3.2 CD's just so 400 of them can be thrown away
next week when 1.3.3 is released?  Sure, maybe Charles and I should have
anticipated how many CD's we'd sell on our first run; but I guess we're
just guys without marketing degrees.  In our defense, all I can say
is, when you're taking $4000 out of your own bank account to make CD's
that you personally feel is probably highly speculative and is a risk;
you don't particularly want to spend $6000 to burn twice as many... No
matter how much everyone else is happy to spend your money...

<ramble ramble ramble>... It's a vicious circle... I can only say,
we'll know better next time...

 > No matter how you cut it, I think that a scheme like the one i've
 > described would be an improvement over the current situation (which i
 > see as: people suggesting things, nobody stepping forward and actually
 > doing stuff or keeping track of what's being done, and people
 > occasionally whining that nothing's being done).

Take the NetBSD system bezel stickers as an example... Everyone said
we should have them.  A few people stepped forward and offered to get
estimates... One company stepped forward and offered an estimate
(that was a little expensive, but whatever)... Ok, now what? Who's
going to do the artwork?  Who's going to put the $1000 on their credit
card to get the stickers printed?  Who's going to receive the stickers?
Who's going to sell them and stuff them in envelopes and mail them out
to people who want them?  Who's going to deal with the complaints when
10% of them don't arrive in mailboxes? Who's going to reship them? 
Then who gets the profits?

I see the obvious answer there is "Well, lets get herb to do that since
he already has the infrastructure setup to accept credit card orders,
do shipping, and handle customer service queries."  To which I respond,
"I'm already working 16 hours a day; now you want me to do even more
work?"

Sure, I can hire people to do some of the grunt work, but then I'm 
running another company.. I'm already running 2 companies... I don't
have the time to run a 3rd... We've had offers from book companies to
sell CD's and such but thus far, the offers come with offers to sell
stuff and not contribute anything significant back to the project...

Maybe the project doesn't care that other companies are making money
off selling NetBSD CD's... But I care... I want to see some money come 
back into the project so we can do marketing that truly serves the
project...

 > Obviously, I'm not in any position to say "this will be done," but are
 > there people who think they are qualified are willing to volunteer?

No one has stepped forward that I believe has any credibility to actually
accomplish any of this... 

I think maybe I'm just tired...