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Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:59:30 +0100 (CET)
Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises
From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl>
To: "J. Joseph Max Katz" <jkatz@cpio.net>
Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux
Cc: advocacy@openbsd.org,
	 FreeBSD advocacy list <FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
	, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG

Sorry for the late joining in the fray, had routing/ipv6 courses last few
days... Anyways I hope to provide some insight from my eyes on the whole matter
and contribute to a cause I know is worthwhile... Any comments and suggestions
are as always appreciated...

On 26-Nov-98 J. Joseph Max Katz wrote:
> 1: The technical aspect--  (off the top of my head)
>   o messaging all device drivers to one format for this new "mega" 'vmunux'
>       This will be the greatest strength gained-- a great collective pool
>       which will ensure BSD for generations :)
>       . IMHO-- we need to make as many of these drivers as machine 
>       independant as possible. Even if the gscbus is only found on
>       PA-RISC machines, we should be able to compile it onto an i386
>       kernel if we really, really want to.

I have to agree with the aggregration of the all the device drivers of all the
BSD's. I think Open and Net could benefit from the FreeBSD CAM effort to name
but one example... But this will require a large effort on generalizing all the
names probably with some guidelines about future naming... Also the idea of
compiling architecture specific things into another architecture is bound to
call for problems. config would have to be made that intelligent to see those
things... 

>   o making sure all syscalls/libaries are backwards compatible with 
>       the current setups on all systems. ("foo" on FreeBSD/i386 should
>       run the same on this new kernel as it used to.)

A very good idea at the initial stages, the transition period, but after that
the whole effort is bound to debate about all the calls and implement one
standard instead of three commands each resembling each other but with entirely
different results.

>   o IMHO re-entrent kernel. It's debateable, but if we're going to merge the
>        codebase we should do this. This will make SMP work correctly on
>        all architectures. We could also make SMP work across the board,
>        and make it as MI as possible.

On a sidenote, about 80% of Novell NLM (NetWare Loadable Modules) are
re-entrant. It has obvious advantages, and mayhaps it's even usable for *BSD...
Who knows? ;)
 
> 3: Packaging/installation--
>   o IMHO We need a solid packaging system. Someone on misc@openbsd.org touted
>       we should move to RPM. RPM is REDHAT Package Manager. We need our
>       own. I propose ".bsz" -- gziped, tarred + header with info on 
>       arhitecture + version + dependencies. Ever install a SparcLinux
>       RPM onto a i386 RedHat system? :)

RPM? Ick... I think the reason people like BSD systems is because the ports
still require the original sources instead of binaries. All members of the
security lists will agree on the fact that the only thing to trust is source. I
guess it's all a matter of preference as we have the ports as well as packages.

> 4: Code review--
>       o ego 'r us.

Ego is bad and yet good. Look at Linus, he wanted World Domination, called
Tanenbaum an idiot with regard to some of his ideas, yet he is Jesus amongst
Linux evangelists along with his lieutenants Alan Cox and whoever are still
there.

>       o Each group has its own "core" group with its own level of "trust".

If I speak of the limited exposure I have had with the FreeBSD core members, I
have to say that despite the initial errors I made (and still make from time to
time, hey I am learning Jordan ;) they remain the same lot. I don't think that
I am wrong in assuming that Jordan is to us as Linus is to the Linux fans.
Although we're more of the laid back types to admit it ;)

How about Terry Lambert? Greg Lehey? Mike Smith? Satoshi? Etc, etc... Every
single person being a bit active on the FreeBSD lists knows these persons and
respects them for the tremendous work they commit. Doug White for his constant
newbie help. Bill for the ports as well... And I could on and on if I knew Open
and NetBSD a little better... I only know Theo de Raadt slightly, but he is
like Jordan I guess... A heart for the project. 

Many people wanted a figure like Linux has in Linus... I never bothered to
raise my voice in that discussion, but I will now, we already have them guys...
Be them more modest that Linus, we have them...

>       o There are no real "documented" rules on how to get CVS commit 
>       access with any group other than the unwritten "you code good and
>       often, you in."

The power of the Elite? If I could code the way Mike, Terry, Andrzej, Jordan,
Satoshi, Eivind and god knows who I left out from the various projects, I would
be honoured to join the ranks of the committers. Unfair to others? Mayhaps, but
yet it provides Order in the otherwise resulting Chaos that is Linux and its
distributions.

>       o We're dealing with groups that have splintered because they 
>       couldn't agree on this stuff (among quite a few other things.)

You think they could agree again?

> We'd need a leader to lead the leaders if you get my drift. It won't be
> easy.

Sorry... I think you have been looking at Linux a little too much... The Core
Teams are the democratic group to take decisions regarding the way we should
go. If we would have one person like Linux I foresee even more splintering of
the factions...

Well, hope ye found my rambling somewhat interesting...

If we cannot merge, lets at least try to combine efforts for more co-operation
between the 3 camps...

Be well mates...

---
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai
asmodai(at)wxs.nl                   |  Cum angelis et pueris,
Junior Network/Security Specialist  |  fideles inveniamur
*BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... <http://www.freebsd.org>