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	Sun, 11 Oct 1998 18:40:55 +0200 (CEST)
From: Markus Illenseer <markus@core.de>
Message-Id: <199810111640.SAA18045@beaver.core.de>
Subject: Re: Export NetBSD CDs
In-Reply-To: <3624bc73.16544035@mail.danbbs.dk> from Anders Dinsen at "Oct 11, 98 03:41:21 pm"
To: dinsen@danbbs.dk
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 18:40:54 +0200 (CEST)
Cc: babafou@babafou.eu.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG
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 Thanks for sending a copy, please send any reply as Cc: to me
as well. I am not on the Advocacy list.

> See also http://core.de/Gateway/

 This is the Homepage of the CD-ROM itself. If you want to order the
CD, please go over to http://www.schatztruhe.de/
 
> I'd suggest making Markus' CD-ROMs official NetBSD cd-roms. Along with
> some for the US market (with crypto-code).

 Thanks for the flowers. The major difference between my CD and the 
"official" CD are indeed the missing secure-stuff, a slight different
idea about the installation process and: The official CD-ROM does include 
a small fee for the NetBSD-foundation, whereas my CD-ROM doesnt (yet). 
Read more about this topic below.
 
 It would be a great challenge beeing the official source of NetBSD
CD-ROMs, and I would accept it, when asked.

> >I also insist on the necessity for the NetBSD Foundation to have
> >CDs if we want more and more people to be able to install NetBSD.
> >Sure we're not backed up by a big CD vendor as FreeBSD is by
> >Walnut Creek, and that's a disadvantage for us, but we do need
> >CDs.

 Schatztruhe GmbH in Germany is not a global player, but is able to 
market any CD-ROM world wide, if necessary. Resellers are welcome.

> >I inquired about prices.  Making the master of the CD should cost
> >a little less than $400, the master of the booklet around $120.
> >Then each CD should cost $1 and $0.25 for each booklet.

 The process of creating the master CD is about 500DM in Germany,
which is 320$US. Your price of $1 end users price for each CD is not 
makeable, because you forgot the minimum issue of at least 500 CDs. 
This makes your CD already 400$ + 125$ + 500 * 1$ + 500 * 0.25$ = 2.3$ 
each CD.  The price for the master is a basic price, and does not include 
the price for the CDs themself. The amount of the issue changes the price 
for the actual CDs. The more you are going to press, the cheaper each CD. 
Big presses do not start below issues of 1000 pcs, small presses do so, 
but will not offer better prices. BTW, you forgot the jewel cases, which
are about 0.5 to 1$ per pcs; some presses even want money for the
shrink-wrap.

 Non the less, are you willing to "risc" 1150$ just like this and
do the shipping? I cant do that, I have a job to earn my living, and my 
precious spare time sure is more valuable than packaging CD...
Schatztruhe is doing this for me, taking the risc, doing the marketing,
packaging, shiping and posting the CDs. The price is very reasonable at 
about 13$ US (excluding shipping, excluding VAT in other countries) for a 
doubleheader (!). This is one of the most cheapest prices affordably
and makeable right now for a low quantity issue.

 This way I am out of business, so to speak, and I do not even
earn a penny. Schatztruhe is earning money - which is their right -
and doing the business. I for myself have a lot to do with the
process of assembling the CDs.

 The channel is open already, the price is fair. Spread the word.

 There is a way more important issue on the launch of the next CD ROM
set, for which I need your help or ideas.

 With the integration of the package system for NetBSD, I am running
out of CD ROM space. A double header is not enough to carry the entire
packages for all platforms. Even if I concentrate on the more frequent
platforms, I would probably need 4 CD ROMs. A 4 CD set is too expensive,
because only one third of it is required (or welcomed) by anybody using 
only one platform. So the other CDs are wasted money and efforts.

 Making seperate CD double headers for each platform is too much a
risc for the taker. 

 One general purpose CD for the installation process is not presentable,
because at maximum 3 (maybe 4) platforms could be integrated on one single
CD and be able to boot and install directly off CD.

 So, what would be the basic ground? A CD for each platform including
NetBSD binary sets and ready-to-run packages?  A double header for
most important platforms? Who to decide or to take the risc?

 I need more numbers. How many users and potential buyers do we have 
for each NetBSD platform? Is it reasonable to split into several CDs?

 In my eyes, the advantage of NetBSD is being multi-platformed and the
NetBSD distribution should never be splitted. This makes at least
one CD which is always the base for every platform.

 Besides the "install" CD, the next CD would then be a "companion" for 
i386, another CD for m68k, and yet another for - tell me, Sparc, 
Alpha, SA?

 Also, the more official and inofficial CD for NetBSD there are, the
less buyers each CD can reach. This makes the issues smaller and the
CDs more expensive. I am able to donate a fee to the NetBSD-foundation
from each sold CD. It would make the CD more expensive. A single Dollar
donated from each CD would make the CD about 3 Dollars more expensive.
At least in Germany the price of the CD is below the psychological
barrier of 20DM (13$US). Anything above is no longer a "no think about
the price" product. This is one reason I choosed my CD not to have
a donation fee, but taking the advantage to promote and market the CD.

 Another idea is to include international money transfer sheets inside 
the CD ROM, and pre-fill it with necessary information to donate any (!)
amount of money to the NetBSD-foundation. This costs about 0.25$ per
CD (and delays the production, because there is no machine to include
those papers in the jewel case). I have good experiences with this
on the german market (Some of you might know the "Meeting Pearls" 
series for the Amiga). It didn't worked world wide, though.

 Sorry for all those words, but I think it gave the idea about how
complicated the process of assembling and distribute CD-ROMs can be.
I have been through the discussion about prices, marketing and risc
thrice already. Today this is more easy than in 1994, when I started 
the Gateway! Series.

 If you want to help me creating the next issue, ie. writing some tools
for the installation process, or as Beta-Tester, or want to resell
the CD in your country, or know of a company able and willing to resell 
in your country, let me or Schatztruhe know.

-- 
Markus Illenseer
NetBSD 1.3.2 CD-ROM "Gateway! Vol. 3" now shipping!  See:  http://core.de/