tech-repository archive

[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index][Old Index]

Reply to core statement on version control systems

I have been forwarded core's statement of direction on version
control.  The following is a detailed reply and proposal grounded in
my experience as the maintainer of cvs-fast-export and reposurgeon.
Full original text is included for archival purposes.

Executive summary:

* Git and hg are the viable options; I can convert to either, with 
  slightly more accident risk for hg because its import tools are
  less well tested.

* Most steps in the technical process are independent of the choice
  between git and hg; thus it is not strictly necessary to finalize
  that choice going in.

* Whichever of the two you choose, there are plugins which support 
  live access via the other.

* Git has mature support for access via CVS clients; hg does not.

* I am confident that performance will not be a serious issue with
  either system. Git has a small advantage on low-memory systems
  due to being written in C rather than a language with GC.

* I recommend in favor of a big-bang cutover with CVS gateway
  enabled immediately, and *against* trying to incrementally propagate CVS 
  commits to a target DVCS during an extended fade-over. CVS has some
  misfeatures that would make such a fade-over risky, and there are
  better ways to mitigate the problems of the big-bang approach.

* Duplicate logically-distinct vendor branch labels pose a technical
  issue that is ugly but solvable.

* It *will* be possible to graft SCCS history to the conversion.

> The NetBSD core group has been asked to make a statement on 
> version control systems.
> There is a strong case for switching from CVS to a modern 
> distributed version control system (DVCS).  However, the 
> proponents of particular DVCS systems have not presented a 
> coherent plan that can be used to implement a transition from the 
> current system to a new system.

In this reply I shall propose most of such a plan.

Background information:

I maintain cvs-fast-export, which converts CVS repositories to
git-fast-import streams.

I maintain reposurgeon, a powerful tool for repository conversion and surgery
which is essentially a structure editor for git-fast-import streams.

I maintain sccs2rcs, which can lift SCCS files to RCS and thus make a
collection of the them fit input to cvs-fast-export.

I have been specifically targeting NetBSD src as a test of these tools
for many months, because it's the biggest and ugliest pile of CVS I know 
of anywhere.

I have built a computer colorfully known as the Great Beast of Malvern 
with processor and RAM/cache characteristics specifically tuned for
speeding up complex repository surgery, with the explicit aim of hunting
down and converting large CVS repositories.  

(The regulars on my blog donated no less than $2790 to the "Help Stamp
Out CVS In Your Lifetime" fund so the Great Beast could be built.  I
told them NetBSD was target #1.  If you listen hard enough you can
probably hear them cheering...)

> In the opinion of the core group, the NetBSD project should switch 
> from CVS to a DVCS system as soon as a suitable transition plan is 
> presented and approved.

I believe I can have the technical prerequisites in place as soon as
your approval process allows the conversion to proceed.

> Some of the things that we would like to be addressed in a 
> transition plan are:
>  * How well the proposed system satisfies the requirements and
>    desires of the community, in terms of features, ease of use,
>    performance, and other considerations that have been mentioned
>    in the tech-repository mailing list.  It would be useful to
>    have a matrix similar to the one produced by FreeBSD, available
>    at <>.

I have examined the FreeBSD matrix.  I can tell you some things
that I believe will simplify your decision tree.

First: It is a matter of fact that the bzr and SVK systems are
moribund.  Cogito has not been maintained since 2006; today's
option is "bare" git.

Second: while I respect what the Subversion team has done (and have
been a minor contributor to that code myself) Subversion performance
is so agonizingly slow on repositories the size of yours that this
problem is in itself a showstopper. And that's before we get to the
fact that SVN is not a DVCS and lacks the replication/merge capabilities
of more modern VCSes.

Third: Monotone, while a very interesting system in concept, has IMO
failed to achieve the degree of user and developer buy-in required to
sustain itself as a project.  This failure is less a reflection of
Monotone's intrinsic merits or faults than of the brute fact that git
and hg have sucked all of the oxygen out of the space Monotone aimed
to occupy.  There is thus no realistic prospect that Monotone will
achieve all the capabilities NetBSD requires (such as, for example, CVS

Fourth: I know there has been some interest in Fossil (not listed in the
FreeBSD matrix) in the NetBSD community. It, too is, an interesting design
with significant good points.  Unfortunately, it is not designed to scale
up to anywhere near NetBSD's size of project and I believe Fossil's author
would himself recommend against deployment here.

Only git and hg approximate the combination of performance and features
which I understand the NetBSD project to require.

I can do a full conversion to either target with relative ease.  My tools would
go through a git-fast-export stream as an intermediate representation.  
Because this is the case, you need not commit to a final choice between the
two until a late stage of the cutover.

(The choice is not completely symmetrical. We are slightly more likely to hit
unexpected  glitches converting to hg, as their import tools are less well
tested than git's.)

>  * Performance implications of the desired VCS system, especially
>    for hosts with low or moderate amounts of memory.

With certainty, neither git nor hg performance will pose any
noticeable performance issues on recent desktop or server hardware
with RAM of 4GB or up.  I know this through having experimented with
the src repository myself and by reports from cvs-fast-export devs.
>    Whether low performance hosts:
>      - will be able to use the new system fully; or
>      - will be able to use a degraded mode that will allow at
>        least HEAD and branch checkouts and commits (but perhaps
>        without the ability to create new branches or to merge); or
>      - will be able to use a front-end or mirror that provides
>        CVS-like capabilities and performance; or
>      - will not be able to use revision control at all.
>    Note that a checkout of the NetBSD "src" tree has nearly 150000
>    files in more than 15000 subdirectories (not including "CVS"
>    subdirectories, or obsolete files or directories), and the
>    "src" CVS repository has more than 300000 files in more than
>    38000 directories (including "Attic" subdirectories).  Almost
>    all existing DVCS systems exhibit performance problems on a
>    tree of this size, unless the host has ample memory.

I cannot answer the questions with certainty for "low-memory" systems,
because I don't know how constrained your minimum build platform is.  I
can say the following:

1. I have never heard serious performance complaints from users of
   either git or hg, even on very large repositories and relatively
   weak hardware.

2. Git collects a slight edge here through being written in a fixed-extent
   language (C) rather than one with GC (Python).

3. For raw performance on common operations, and pretty much regardless
   of RAM size, there is *nothing* faster than git.  It is the best you
   are going to do by that measure. 

>  * Whether it will be possible to run the existing CVS system
>    in parallel with the new version control system during a
>    transition period, and if so, how commits made to one system
>    will be mirrored to the other.

It could be tried - cvs-fast-export has an incremental-dump option
that could be pressed into service - but in the absence of commitids
(which older sections of the repository will not have), CVS lacks the
coherence and monotonicity properties required to incrementally mirror
to a changeset-based VCS safely.

The attempt could work fine, or it could fail in some gnarly but
unobvious way that would leave damage in the converted history. I do
not recommend attempting this.

(CVS is unfortunately special in this regard.  SVN has good coherence
and monotonicity; a fadeover strategy from SVN would make sense.)

When I did the Emacs conversion, what I did instead of a fadeover was
publish a series of trial conversions for review while the old bzr
repo was still in use. Core team members were encouraged to audit the
trial conversions for glitches.

Eventually we scheduled a day for full cutover of the live repo and just
did it.  For this project I would also set up a CVS gateway to the
converted repo (if git is the target).

While such a cutover may sound a bit daunting my experience is that
those generally go quite smoothly if the trial conversions have een
properly audited beforehand.

>  * Whether one-way or bidirectional near-real-time conversion to
>    other VCS systems will be possible on an ongoing basis, and
>    if so, to which systems (other than the system chosen as the
>    master), and how it will be configured.

Whether you elect hg or git, it should be relatively easy to support 
both git and hg clients.

CVS is a different matter. Git's support for access via a CVS client
is pretty mature and well documented. Hg either does not have this

>  * A matrix of all the supporting tools and code that currently
>    assumes CVS, with plans and actions for the conversion of each
>    item to the new VCS.

I can't do this part, because I don't know your codebase well enough.
>  * How the NetBSD project's official servers should be set up,
>    taking into account the needs of developers with write access,
>    read-only access for the public to mirror the repository,
>    read-only access for the public to check out the tree (if
>    that is different from mirroring the repository), backups,
>    redundancy, audit trail, email for commit messages, and any
>    other issues identified with the assistance of NetBSD admins.
>  * How tools will be incorporated into the src tree, or
>    bootstrapped from pkgsrc. 
>  * How developers and non-developers will interact with the
>    system, including workflow options for official release or
>    feature branches, and for personal public or private branches
>    (by both developers with write access, and non-developers).

These procedural issues are outside my competence.  See my remarks below 
on "Mr. Inside".
>  * New standards for log messages that refer to earlier commits,
>    to avoid tying us to any particular VCS in the future.
>    (Roughly, what to say in log messages instead of "revision
>    <number>" or "commit <hash>" or "the previous commit".)

I use a format I call an "action stamp" that looks like this:


While this is not absolutely guaranteed unique it is close enough in
>  * How the existing repository will be converted.  The following
>    items would be nice to have (in decreasing order of importance):
>      - how CVS vendor branches will be handled, including
>        cases where the same vendor tag has been used for
>        logically-distinct branches (as is common in pkgsrc).

I'm going to need more technical detail on this, and a pointer to
examples; it sounds ugly.  In the worst case I may need to write 
a custom pre-conversion step to hack the CVS branch labels.

>      - how (if at all) historical log messages will be edited
>        during the conversion (for example, to adjust the
>        character set, to convert user names to email addresses,
>        or to fix up references to CVS numeric revision numbers,
>        to make them use the newly defined standards);

My normal practice is to do all three of these fixups.  I adjust the
character set to UTF-8.  I lift CVS revision numbers to an action
stamp identifying the derived changeset.  Fullname/email pairs need to
be compiled from the project's records (usually by mining mailing list
archives) before the final conversion.

One additional fixup I normally do is to remove expanded CVS keyword
values from the masters.  These are only supposed to be generated into
workfiles on checkout, but there are various forms of mischief with the
underlying RCS commands that can result in them getting wedged into masters
where they shouldn't be.
>      - how (if at all) historical repository moves and copies
>        will be identified and fixed up during the conversion;

This is a non-issue under git, which does no container tracking and
does not represent moves and copies internally.  (Instead it deduces this
informatiom when needed.)

hg *does* container-track.  Should you elect it as a final target,
rename and move operations can be automatically deduced at the
last stage.

>      - whether pre-CVS history (such as the older SCCS history)
>        can also be included, either at the time of conversion, or
>        later;

That will be messy, but I have the tools to handle grafting SCCS 
history onto the final conversion.

>      - whether information removed as a result of the USL v. BSDI
>        lawsuit could ever be reinstated, if legal issues were
>        resolved in the future.

It could. My reposurgeon tool is good for this sort of thing.

>  * Considerations to avoid lock-in to a particular version
>    control system, but to allow for a future change to yet
>    another system.  (For example, we could choose a VCS system
>    with a widely supported import and export format, and restrict
>    our workflow to features that are supported by many VCS
>    systems, and avoid the use of features that are unique to the
>    chosen system; however, the set of widely-supported features
>    should be identified.)

The set of widely-supported features is easy: it's what will fit in
a git-fast-import stream.  The only real compromise this may entail is
giving up on container-tracking if future importers are not capable of 
deducing these operations.

>  * An estimated time-line of the conversion, together with a list
>    of people responsible for it and their respective tasks.
> -- Alan Barrett, on behalf or the NetBSD core group

My time estimate is approximately two man-months.


The conversion expert, Mr. Outside, would be me.  I will take responsibility 
for all technical issues related to the history conversion, as outlined above.

We will also require a "Mr. Inside". That person should be a member
of the core team with policy authority over the conversion. Mr. Inside's
reponsibilities will include

* Collecting full names and email addresses of committers so we can do
  name mapping properly.

* Identifying CVS dependencies in the source tree.

* Writing the part of the plan that deals with post-conversion
  administrative issues - hosting, access control, redundancy, email hooks,
  tool bootstrapping, workflow, private branches.

* Communicating the core team's requirements and decisions to Mr. Outside.

* Arranging the server access Mr. Outside will require to build and
  publish conversions.

* Signing off on the quality of the conversion.

* Choosing the cutover day.

While I'm not attempting to volunteer him, I will note that Alan
Barrett and I collaborated well on some of the early exploratory work
leading up to this.  If he's willing to take on the Mr. Inside job I
would be quite in favor of that.

Potential trouble spots:

In a conversion on a CVS repository this large and this old, the
probability that we will trip over some nasty and heretofore unknown
repository malformation(s) approaches unity. I'll probably need to do some
sort of significant development work on cvs-fast-export, which is the
main reason the time estimate is so long.
		<a href="";>Eric S. Raymond</a>

"Gun control" is a job-safety program for criminals.

Home | Main Index | Thread Index | Old Index