Subject: Re: PF for netbsd
To: None <tech-net@netbsd.org>
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@rek.tjls.com>
List: tech-net
Date: 06/28/2003 22:20:43
On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 11:06:42AM +0900, itojun@iijlab.net wrote:
> >> >Indeed, you're one of the only people to be found who has managed to
> >> >maintain any sort of tenure in both camps.
> >> 	no.  do not spread lies, ok?
> >That's some very charged language you're using; I think you owe me
> >an apology.
> 
> 	i hereby apologize for the use of strong wording.

Thank you.

> 	however, it is still true that your statement is false (is it a strong
> 	wording?  i'm not an English-native speaker so forgive me if it is).

No, that's a perfectly appropriate assertion to make.  The problem is that
it's *only* a bare assertion; I've provided both facts and reasoning to
support my conclusion, while you seem to simply be ignoring most of what
I said and have provided only, in essence, a diff of two password files
and an interpretation thereof that includes some obvious mistakes (which
I pointed out, but to which you made no response) and some highly dubious
reasoning.

Saying that the world is as it's not does not, in fact, change reality, as
much as we might wish otherwise.  Out of hundreds of developers, there are
at most seven *accounts that share the same name* in the two projects in
question; some of those seem to not be the same individual, and of all of
them, you and Matt Jacob (who has not maintained continuous developer
status in either project) are the only ones who seem to have been active
in both projects for any real length of time.  On the other hand, even
the tiny sample you provided includes two individuals who have, in fact,
been expelled from the OpenBSD project and who are not welcome to return -- 
exactly what you seem to be claiming does not occur.  In fact, this is
true of several other NetBSD developers, and there are a number of others
who have been told in no uncertain terms that they need not apply to the
OpenBSD project because they are not welcome.  There are also, as I mentioned
(and as you did not dispute) a number of developers in the NetBSD project
who were expelled from the OpenBSD project quite explicitly because they
refused to cease working on NetBSD.

In the light of these facts -- which you claim to be not so, but for which
claim you present no evidence -- I am highly skeptical of the suggestion
that the right thing for NetBSD to do is punt the packet filter we've got,
pick up one that's maintained as part of OpenBSD, and then politely ask
for OpenBSD developer status so that we can work on our new packet filter,
too.

I can't see how the actual facts would not be rather disturbing to just
about anyone who took a careful look at them -- but wishing inconvenient
or disturbing facts out of existence, sadly, is not a productive way to
deal with them, any more than calling those who point them out liars.

Thor