Subject: Re: PF and Darren Reed
To: John Klos <>
From: Jim Wise <>
List: regional-nyc
Date: 03/19/2004 17:47:36
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004, John Klos wrote:

>> On the contrary, I'd say some generalizations are not only easy but
>> correct.  Right up there at the top of the list would be ``mass
>I am talking about the generalisations you have made about me. Please
>follow along - there was plenty of context. See the first sentence -
>"generalisations based on a serious question". There is no ambiguity about
>what question I was talking about.

And again, I am perfectly ready to dismiss your opinion if you do not
see why holding up mass murderers as sources of wisdom is bad.  If
that's a generalization, so be it.

>Who ever said that I / we are making role models of totalitarian
>dictators? Who ever mentioned "role models" except you?

No, that is quite correct.  _You_ are not the one holding up Mr.
Dimitrov as a source of wisdom, nor have I asserted that you are.  This
does not mean that Mr. Nordin is not, however.

>> Or are you suggesting that such murders are some sort of ``grey area''
>> which we must be careful never to describe as ``wrong'' or ``evil''?
>Huh? Now you're just making stuff up.

To quote your words:

  I was curious because you seemed judgemental about who someone else
  decided to quote ... But I guess both your reaction to my question and
  your lack of desire to explain why someone might not want to quote
  certain people just illustrates that you are, in fact, judgemental

so which is it?  Are we allowed to be `judgemental' toward mass murder
or not?

>> After all, were someone to post to this list quoting Hitler as a
>> positive role model in their .sig, no one would be the least bit
>> surprised were they to be flamed -- even if the quote chosen were in
>I'd be surprised. Why not quote Hitler? I have learned about Hitler
>because he affected the world. I have learned about the Judeo Christian
>bible because it affects the world. I have learned about the Bush
>Administration because it affects the world. Am I deciding that they are
>all role models? No! You are! Don't put ideas in my mouth.

Again, I doubt you really would be surprised to see someone flamed for
quoting Hitler approvingly in their .sig, but if you indeed would, then
I feel all the more confident in not taking your position seriously.

>> support of some policy of Hitler's (such as vegetarianism) which he had
>> not used to justify his murders.  I can see no reason why other
>> totalitarian mass murderers should get a bye merely because they
>> committed their crimes in the name of some other ideology.
>Who said that, "totalitarian mass murderers should get a bye"?

If we give Mr. Dimitrov a bye when we would (quite rightly) not accept
someone who approved of Hitler, we would be doing just that.  If you
indeed would not object to someone approving of Hitler, however, you are
correct that no one is getting a bye based on their ideology.

>> Are you suggesting that Mr. Nordin quoted Mr. Dimitrov, entirely out of
>> context, so that his readers would tend not to believe the quote chosen?
>> So that they would learn from Mr. Dimitrov's ``mistakes''?  (Interesting
>Look - this is really stupid, and you are not making any sense. I never
>equated the quote with the example of a mistake that we can learn from,
>and you know that. You're being argumentative for no good reason at all.

Your words, again:

  ``Are you one of those people who cannot learn from the mistakes of
  others?  Are you completely ignorant of what these people have done
  because they are bad, and therefore whatever information surrounds
  their existence is suspect and useless?''

>> choice of words, by the way -- I myself would use a word stronger than
>> ``mistakes'' to describe mass murder and the establishment of a brutal
>> totalitarian state apparatus, but perhaps you can explain why this
>> `generalization' of mine is a sign that I have `issues'.   :-)
>You chose to be dismissive and condescending instead of explaining why you
>thought that the quote was not "acceptable".

Indeed.  And I continue to consider anyone who does not see why
considering Mr.  Dimitrov an unacceptable source of wisdom is absurd
eminently dismissable.

>All of this other stuff is bullshit. You are assuming way too much based
>on nothing. You do not know how I feel about Hitler, or Dimitrov, or
>anyone else. I simply think that the idea of censure is blatantly stupid
>and indicative of a weak mind.

Sure, ``who are we to judge'', right?  Far better to approve of such a
figure than to `censure' such approval, right?  Ha.

>> My own suspicion is that Mr. Nordin was not aware of Dimitrov's later
>> career when he selected a quote which he thought worthy.  I'd be curious
>> to hear his opinion on why the quote is worth citing, however.
>Right. So you didn't know, and wrote in response, but still haven't
>answered why he shouldn't have quoted Dimitrov.

On the contrary, I'd say that Mr. Dimitrov's resume is reason enough why
he shouldn't be quoted positively -- and have said so repeatedly.

- -- 
				Jim Wise
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