[Thus spake Greg A. Woods ("GAW: ") 2:22am...]

GAW: But in this specific case (and no doubt in many others like it, but
GAW: we'll leave them out of this for now) there is no valid reason possible
GAW: to store random half-baked cryptic "notes" as overlapping partitions in
GAW: an in-use disklabel to _anyone_, not even yourself, but _especially_ not
GAW: to anyone who might try to figure out what you meant from the resulting
GAW: bizarre and "broken" configuration.

This is something you quite obviously do not understand.  Pity.

GAW: I.e. there is no sense, logic, or value to creating unnecessary and
GAW: confirmably dangerous overlapping partitions, and there's not even any
GAW: way to record arbitrary notes in the label as future hints as to why
GAW: this broken mess was created in the first place.

If I can't remember it "in the future", I probably won't care and can
skrog it then.  However, as is more likely, if I do something as out
of the ordinary as creating very obviously overlapping partitions, I
will probably have a mental note attached to them.  It's not like
e overlaps the tail end of b, or anything like that -- it's more like
p overlaps g and h combined.  I have done this in the past.  You have
no idea what kind of a boon this is for something like data migration.

GAW: Meanshile you've likely got every information recording tool available
GAW: to man, from sticks drawing in the sand to other high-tech modern
GAW: computer disks, and everything in between, to store the information you
GAW: say you want to store without having to mess up an otherwise perfectly
GAW: elegant stand-alone disklabel.  I.e. You really do not need to try to
GAW: store your notes about alternate configurations in some hap-hazzard
GAW: incomplete way in the same disklabel you are trying to use!

Please don't try to hand me a butter knife and say it's a stiletto.
I do know the difference.

GAW: > GAW: Well you're definitely not thinking outside the box on this one!  ;-)
GAW: >
GAW: > Beg pardon?
GAW:
GAW: You're thinking inside the little box disklabel has created for you.

No.  I am thinking outside the strictures of "THOV SHALT NOT OVERLAP
THY DISK PARTITIONS, NOR PERMIT THE OPERATING SYSTEM TO ZORCH THY DATA
BECAVSE OF THY STVPIDITY."

GAW: Think outside the box.  Put pen to paper, even!!!!  Or printer.  I'd
GAW: suggest a piece of tape to secure that paper to the physical drive too,
GAW: just so it doesn't get lost!  You don't know when you might need it!  ;-)
GAW: Write it with a permanent marker right on the HBA cover if you don't
GAW: have pen and paper and tape handy!  And if you don't have a writing
GAW: instrument of any kind available, well then "Step Away From the
GAW: Computer, slowly now and keep your hands up in full view!"  :-)

:/

I do so.  Frequently.  Writing is very cathartic.

However, since your definition is strictly "do not overlap your partitions",
and many other people seem to fall into this nice convenient little mold,
I qualify my thinking, relative to yours, as being "outside the box".

[Comments about Wonko the Sane will be summarily ignored.]

GAW: > Or is it assumed that "True Experts" don't need to run the installer?
GAW:
GAW: Indeed they probably do not __BUT__ I would go much further and argue
GAW: that "True Experts(tm)" have well and enough experience to not even try
GAW: to do anything that's inherently dangerous, even if the software doesn't
GAW: warn them.  That's certainly my philosophy of how to best use one's
GAW: experience.

"Dangerous to your paradigm, Commander -- NOT to my filesystem!"

GAW: Every time anyone argues to me that the software should have some flag
GAW: to allow some "expert" to override some built-in sanity and safety
GAW: checks then I really do have to question whether that person really does
GAW: have the experience to know what they're asking for and to use such a
GAW: feature without causing problems.

That's kind of a rude implication, that just because someone doesn't
follow your train of logic, they're either stupid or insane.

GAW: To put it very bluntly, yes I now there's no way to stop someone who's
GAW: truly dedicated to their course of action and who really does know how
GAW: to do what they wnat to do from straying from their desired course of
GAW: action, no matter what they're trying to do, but that's still no excuse
GAW: for tying the noose for them, so to speak -- if they're that dedicated
GAW: and that "expert" then they don't need anyone's handholding help to get
GAW: where they want to go.

Agreed, here.  Hopefully an installer will never become truly mandatory,
either by design or by unintentional obfuscation.  Currently,
it's really nice because I know where all the raw sets are stored and
I can just haul 'em off and install 'em by hand.  When that goes away
and/or becomes undocumented, I'm going to start asking some very pointed
questions.

GAW: If you want to hand-craft a "broken" disklabel and trick the kernel into
GAW: storing it and using what you specify to control the behaviour of the
GAW: disk device nodes then that's your business and nobody's going to stop
GAW: you -- go nuts!

Too late! %)

GAW: However please do not use that as a very poor excuse for saying that
GAW: tools intended for lesser experts to use should have options to allow
GAW: them to be used to do similarly invalid and incorrect and possibly even
GAW: dangerous things.  The tool is not ever going to have a psychic "I'm
GAW: being used by a True Expert" detector and so if your argument is so
GAW: compelling then it is in fact really only an argument to completely
GAW: remove the sanity checks (or at least turn them off by default) -- and
GAW: how sane is that?

Whoa, there.  Don't put words in my mouth.  I didn't EVER say "Turn Off
The Sanity Checks."   To me, turning them off means that you don't even
look at the issues.  However, if I'm in expert mode -- a mode that I
explicitly must enter -- and I say "do this", I expect, after some
confirmation, to be able to eventually "do this".  I rather liked the
example of

	** WARNING **
	Partition 'e' overlaps partition 'f'

		*******************************************
		* a)>Go back and re-edit the disk label   *
		* b) Give up and go back to the main menu *
		* c) Allow this configuration (DANGEROUS) *
		*******************************************


GAW: This particular example of using overlapping partitions to remember
GAW: something that is much safer to "remember" in some other form is a
GAW: perfect "classic example" of where self-proclaimed experts who are
GAW: trying to override the rules really cannot be as "expert" as they claim
GAW: if indeed their reasons are simply to remember alternate configruations
GAW: and/or to save typing one simple command, especially not when they
GAW: advocate making their "break the rules" options generally available.

See above.  I already addressed this.

GAW: As for that potential excuse of one command
GAW: being "saved", well it is not even on the horizon of justifying an
GAW: option to turn off the sanity checks.

There's potentially more than "one command" being saved.  Think about it.
If it's completely outside the system, then the humanoid error factor
comes into play.

GAW: With relation to this issue I can say that one thing I've learned from
GAW: my 20 years of almost daily sysadmin activities

Welcome to the club.  Years stop mattering after about 10.

GAW: is that putting helpful
GAW: scraps of incomplete information in places where one hopes they might
GAW: eventually be of use is not wise.  Either do it right and record
GAW: everything in sufficient detail, and in a human-readable format in a
GAW: human accessible place, such that it can be deciphered accurately from
GAW: first principles, or don't leave any hints at all, especially when those
GAW: hints will cause mistakes if they're misinterpreted.  Unused
GAW: non-standard overlapping disk partitions can only ever mislead once
GAW: their original purpose is not fresh in mind, or has never been known.

...in which case, one is within one's perfect right to skrog the disklabel.

GAW: If you've got systems in that state now then that's fine, but please
GAW: don't try to suggest that new software should be silent about the
GAW: confusion you've created for it.  Clean them up if you have time and
GAW: before you try to use new software with them, or just leave everything
GAW: well enough alone.

New software should not be trying to pretend that it knows what I am
doing.  Period.

				--*greywolf;