On May 25, 2005, at 11:32 PM, Dan LaBell wrote:

>> Out of curiosity, is your machine really version 2.0.2 or is it  
>> 2.0.1? I am pretty sure I have one of the late model Wallstreet II/ 
>> PDQ machines and it has 2.0.1
>
> If I ever said 2.0.2, it was meaning NetBSD.  Mine is G3 OF3  
> machine 1.4.1.9f1 bootrom
> Lately, I've been taking an interest in anything OF or forth  
> related.  And, I thought perhaps the thread was pointing a way  
> towards casting off all macos dependency.

Well that makes a lot more sense, I was thinking you had an old world  
powerbook with OF 2.

>>> I may have been  confused here, I was reading system disks  
>>> patches as equivalent to firmware updates.  People often complain  
>>> about having to have OS9 writable partition to use them, people  
>>> who have aquired machines to have install netbsd and have no macos.
>>
>> You need an OS9 writable partition to flash update OpenFirmware  
>> yes, but only versions 3 and higher support flash upgrades.
>>  If you could flash versions prior to 3.x then the patches would  
>> probably be unnecessary. The patches are not the same as flashing  
>> the firmware.
>
> That clears things up -- the way terms get knocked around I was a  
> little confused.
> Pram is battery-backed and so non-volatile, flash is, of course, as  
> well.  Often
> I've read get the system disk and apply nvram patches here, leading  
> me to think, it was akin to firmware update, but basically these  
> are nvramrc patches hacking enough forth to get these older  
> firmware machines to boot, and it would seem that one doesn't need  
> a system disk at all to do this, it's just a way to drop it into  
> nvramrc.  (Correct?)

Yes, if you can manage to get into OpenFirmware to load the patches,  
which is a considerable amount of typing and may not be possible  
without the patches already loaded (some machines freeze or have no  
video drivers), you don't need to boot MacOS to do so.

>>  The first machines that supported OF 3 and flashable firmware  
>> were the iMac, Blue and White G3, and the Lombard. Anything with  
>> built in USB ports basically.
>
> Curious, my nvramrc seems to be in flash, at least, it seems  
> unaffected by dead a pram battery, true of OF2 machines?   Also, I  
> now notice I have a node /nvram@ff04000, with forth words, etc, I  
> suppose I could dig up some docs and determine if space is being  
> shared in 1 flash, or if the bootrom is in another chip, again it's  
> just curiosity
> as I have mac os available .   Another idle question: Could nvram  
> be updated across firewire?  ( if Firestarter can write to vram of  
> another mac across firewire...)

No, OF 1 and 2 machines typically lose their settings if you do a  
power manager reset (powerbook), dead PRAM battery, or boot MacOS  
(1.x mainly, 2.x will change real-base I believe). You could update  
nvram or the firmware over firewire. The firmware update process on  
OF 3 machines basically consists of copying the firmware update  
executable binary to the root of the hard drive, blessing it, telling  
the machine to restart and boot hd:,\\:tbxi, then when it's done it  
does "mac-boot" to get back to OS 9, erases the firmware file and  
blesses the OS 9 system folder. I don't really know a reason why you  
would want to update it over firewire, but I'm sure it could be done  
with some coding.

>> I'm not aware that there is anything fixed by firmware updates  
>> that would be required to run NetBSD, but it certainly would be in  
>> your best interests to have the latest firmware. Most of the fix  
>> lists for the firmware updates seem to surround things like  
>> firewire target disk mode, booting from the network, firewire or  
>> USB drives.
>
> True, just adds to ability to boot off your ipod, really, an it's  
> ipod feature.  NetBSD is not currently firewire bootable? or am i  
> wrong?   Firewire disk mode is cool, I haven't tested how it works  
> with security-password, I understand it respects it, just haven't  
> tested it, I've noticed it works where other hot key's don't, as  
> they are actually imp'ed in mac-boot, target disk-mode seems to be  
> done before any forth.

It is firewire bootable, but once booted the firewire code is so  
buggy that I question why anyone has enabled it in GENERIC kernels.  
The mere presence of the code seems to cause system instability. The  
code is just atrocious. It should be re-marked as experimental and  
disabled in all kernels until someone fixes it, or imports the  
FreeBSD code which allegedly works fine.

>> I can't think of anything show stopping that would prevent NetBSD  
>> from running on an old version of the firmware.
>
> Recently, I'm having problem with my mac's screen distorting, and  
> collapsing, kinda like
> a tv or crt in a brown out, but lasting much longer, and not  
> winking out.  Hitting the net I found links to people having the  
> problem who didn't apply firmware update 4.1.9 before installing  
> osx, well I had, and my boot rom version seems to match the upgrade,
> it affects everything, forth, macosx, and NetBSD, sometimes the  
> screen just stays off.
> I've noticed there's PM update I've never applied though, and if  
> it's that I guess I'm glad I have macos available to try the  
> update... It's wierd, I can fix it by unplugging the mac for around  
> hour, then it will work for a few days.

It could be the inverter board on your screen is going, or the cable  
is having issues. If the backlight is staying on then it's not likely  
to be power related. It is certainly possible that it is power  
manager related, our abtn driver does not handle brightness correctly  
and often tends to cause no display in OS X. I usually have to boot  
to OS 9 and adjust the brightness and contrast, then reboot to OS X,  
since OS X doesn't let you adjust the contrast from the buttons on  
the machine; and you can never get to full brightness in NetBSD. The  
pm update should keep your battery from going dead so quickly if I  
remember right.

> Then again, my pram battery has been dead for maybe 2 years now,  
> I'm also kinda wondering if it may be the battery alone,  I  
> remember once not being able jump start a car, and thinking it was  
> in pretty bad shape, and mechanic jumped it by taking the battery  
> out completely, he sad something like a battery can get so dead it  
> acts like a resistor and sucks voltage out of the system... Anyway,  
> I already have a battery, it's just a matter of doing backups and  
> taking the mac apart...

I hope it isn't as much of a pain as it is for the Wallstreet  
(complete system disassembly). They seem to have made it pretty easy  
on the Pismo, just pop the keyboard, replace the battery and snap the  
keyboard back down. Old world machines typically don't boot with a  
completely dead battery.