--pgp-sign-Multipart_Wed_Jul_11_13:49:44_2007-1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

At Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:25:44 +0200, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:
Subject: Re: [HEADS UP] pkg_install pullup
>=20
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 12:47:06AM -0400, Greg A. Woods wrote:
> > At Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:22:47 +0200, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:
> > Subject: [HEADS UP] pkg_install pullup
> > >=20
> > > Already removed in the current version are:
> > > - part of the backend to support multiple @cwd directives
> > > - pkg_create doesn't allow require scripts any longer, support in
> > > pkg_add and pkg_info will be removed at a later point.n
> >=20
> > That's not a good idea.  Why remove a VERY useful feature?
>=20
> Because it is redundant. The install script is called twice, once for
> pre-install mode, once for post-install mode. If it returns
> un-successful in the pre-install phase, the full installation is
> stopped.

No, the requirements script is NOT redundant.  (It might be used
sometimes for some rather strange purposes in FreeBSD ports, but it is
definitely not redundant in any way!)

The install script has an entirely different purpose in the pre-install
phase.

Perhaps your view has been blinded by the mass of ugly infrastructure
inside pkgsrc which can be used to create the behemoths of ugly
multi-purpose scripts which already vastly overload the meaning and
purpose of the install script.  Pkgsrc is far from the only creator of
package bundles usable by pkg_install!

It is very important to have at least the minimum of separate scripts
for separate purposes that pkg_install was designed to have.  Besides, a
"+REQUIRE" script is a necessary standard component of the "pkg" format
used by pkg_install.


> > > - pkg_create -h and -X were dropped
> >=20
> > I'm not so sure it's a good idea to remove those features either.
>=20
> The PLIST can be filtered to get the result of -X and -h seriously
> breaks too many things to be useful.

The "breaks too many things to be useful" might be true for '-h', but
none of what you say is true of -X.


> They are complete unused. The master/slave mode was *NEVER* used,
> neither for pkgsrc nor for ports.

Well, just because pkgsrc and ports don't use those features doesn't
mean that they are not very useful on their own outside of pkgsrc or
ports.  Pkgsrc and ports are not the only creators of "pkg" bundles for
their respective platforms.


> The only practical area where it might
> be helpful is installation into sub-directory (DESTDIR mode similiar to
> installworld). That can be done much easier and will be part of the
> commit that removes master/slave mode and drops the external tar
> invocation. Keeping this around means a lot of useless code to convert
> and I don't see a valid reason for such a maintainance mess. I can't
> even test is without creating my own test suite yet.

Well if NetBSD's pkg_install had been kept a proper derivative of the
original then there wouldn't be such a maintenance mess in the first
place -- there would be a lot more hands and eyes to do the necessary
maintenance work.

I really very strongly object to making NetBSD's pkg_install
incompatible in any API way with FreeBSD (or OpenBSD or anyone else who
has picked up and is using pkg_install).

I'm sure I won't be the only one to object even more strongly if
NetBSD's pkg_install suddenly becomes incompatible with the underlying
"pkg" format.  Perhaps you haven't done enough research yet to have
heard of ESP and its use of the "pkg" format?

If you want to design a new pkgsrc package management tool and a new
package bundle format then fine, go ahead and do that, but PLEASE call
it something else!  Do not pretend that you're improving pkg_install.


> Being compatible was irrelevant for ages.

Maybe for you.  Perhaps you are too focused on a homogeneous
environment.  Such environments are still exceedingly rare in the real
world, especially when they are composed of NetBSD hosts (or even all
"pkgsrc" hosts).


It is really important for you to think about the uses of pkg_install
outside of pkgsrc.  It is critical that a modern operating system come
with a standardized package management tool of some form.  It's
unfortunate that the *BSDs chose the N.I.H. philosophy and rolled their
own yet again, but that's history now.  It would be really sad if NetBSD
again distanced itself even further from the pack by blowing all hope of
maintaining any compatibility with even its fellow *BSDs in this matter.


Really the goal of the NetBSD base OS, w.r.t. pkg_install, should be to
make it possible to use FreeBSD ports on NetBSD and without having to
replace pkg_install (or any other basic tools, such as make) in the
process!


--=20
						Greg A. Woods

H:+1 416 218-0098 W:+1 416 489-5852 x122 VE3TCP RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>       Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>

--pgp-sign-Multipart_Wed_Jul_11_13:49:44_2007-1
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
MessageID: WJ3bNZ6/egQyScGVMu9HHfzrHznQDfHH

iQA/AwUBRpUYOGZ9cbd4v/R/EQKAfACeI81Q8if7PHUoex3Hv7c+z7sHwz0AoLWW
itYHpTcVRSZR4kHTlcCSvwhl
=Gppw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--pgp-sign-Multipart_Wed_Jul_11_13:49:44_2007-1--