Subject: Re: Desktop application agenda
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Przemys=C5=82aw_Pawe=C5=82czyk?= <>
From: David Brownlee <>
List: netbsd-users
Date: 04/14/2007 01:39:31
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, Przemys=C5=82aw Pawe=C5=82czyk wrote:

>>  =09So, in what areas can this be improved
>>  =09c) Improving the pkgsrc infrastructure, in particular having
>> an option for a standard NetBSD install to automatically pull
>>  =09   in packages from pkgsrc, via binary packages initially and
>>  =09   later via filling in the holes via src where needed.
>>  =09   _This_ is where I think the real win would be
> I'm all for it! And vice-versa, to pull binaries (if exist), not
> sources, for every dependency during compilation.

 =09Absolutely, though as with many things there is the danger of
 =09just focusing on a solution which provides everything, which
 =09is so much work it never happens, as opposed to smaller steps
 =09on the way to a final solution, each of which a really useful
 =09on their own right. Such as pkg_select -

>>  =09d) Having more choice of NetBSD installations which come
>>  =09   preconfigured with useful applications.
> That's what I pointed out, to no avail.

 =09How an idea is presented can affect it reception :) Appearing
 =09to advocate adding a large number of applications to the
 =09existing NetBSD distribution, is going to make those who
 =09want the very lean install unhappy, while still not providing
 =09enough for everybody unless you include all of KDE plus all
 =09of gnome, plus... well, all of pkgsrc

 =09NetBSD already ships OS CD images and download, plus similar
 =09for pkgsrc, the obvious next step is to include something
 =09like pkg_select in the base system, and offer to run it
 =09automatically after install.

 =09If installing from CD and there are any binary packages on
 =09the CD it could offer to install them all, or a selection,
 =09or it could download packages from a full pkgsrc build.

 =09NetBSD could offer 'minimal' ISO images virtually the same
 =09size as they are now, plus OS+pkgsrc images where appropriate,
 =09and a very easy mechanism where someone can take the base
 =09OS distribution, plus their preferred selection of binary
 =09packages and combine them into their own install image.

>>  =09   While I think 'c)' is more useful, this is also a win.
>>  =09   Interestingly we have pkgsrc/sysutils/mklivecd which
>> allows custom live CDs to be built. I think having an option to
>>  =09   put an installer on that would be very interesting,
>>  =09   particularly when combined with c).
> Revolution's coming! I still don't believe my eyes.

 =09Evolution maybe more then revolution... all when people
 =09can put in the time. I think you'll find that the most
 =09people are not against what you want from a NetBSD
 =09distribution, they are just adverse to being told (or at
 =09least appearing to be told) that the existing setup which
 =09works very well for them is junk and needs to be replaced.

 =09Fortunately we can (and IMHO should) be able to fulfill both

 =09the code,
>>  =09   Note d) is a _perfect_ area where someone can experiment
>>  =09   and when they have something which works for them and
>>  =09   others they can come back and say "look at this, would
>>  =09   it not be good if we could add this as an option to the
>>  =09   official NetBSD releases"
> Nooooo, you're kidding? Right?

 =09The NetBSD ftp server already hosts the live CD image made
 =09by freeX and
 =09pkgsrc has the mklivecd and pkg_select packages, and NetBSD
 =09has within the last release or so imported tools into the
 =09base system to allow the standard release build to include
 =09iso images.

 =09So... whats missing?

 =09- Getting pkg_select (or possibly some other tool) ready
 =09  to be run at the end of a NetBSD install and adding it
 =09  to the base system - pkg_select is small and has no
 =09  awkward dependencies

 =09- Adjusting pkgsrc/sysutils/mklivecd to be able to include
 =09  a copy of the NetBSD OS distribution, or at the very least
 =09  to be able to run sysinst so it can download and install
 =09  NetBSD (including the 'pkg_select or similar at the end')

 =09- Someone after each NetBSD release and probably pkgsrc
 =09  stable branch taking the latest OS release and running
 =09  pkgsrc/sysutils/mklivecd with the right options to make
 =09  a new 'live+install' CD

 =09I'm not saying "this is what will happen", more "this is
 =09one thing that could happen", and I think its quite reasonable

>>  =09People want different things from NetBSD. We need to try to
>> pick directions which can give the most people "what they want", and
>>  =09I think c) and d) from the above are two options in that.
>>> Perhaps your "hate" makes you "blind" and you didn't notice what
>>> I really said. _That I'm not using NetBSD. I'm using applications
>>> running under control of operating system, here NetBSD._
>>  =09I think your phrasing may be off-putting to some. hate is
>> quite a strong word, and people are likely to focus on that word and
>>  =09your message may be lost.
> That's right. But I said it before - some pay attention to form,
> not to e-mail text nitty-gritty.
>>  =09Another way of phrase it might have been:
>>  =09"Perhaps your strong views against the idea of "bloating"
>>  =09NetBSD meant you missed my main point. _That I'm not using
>>  =09NetBSD. I'm using applications running under control of
>>  =09operating system, here NetBSD._"
> Let it be then. If it only secure results from all the mess with
> Mr. Pawe=C5=82czyk's ideas.

 =09Could I take a step back here - you appear to have a lot
 =09of enthusiasm and energy and want to help NetBSD. In what
 =09areas do you think you have the best skills to help, or
 =09are interesting in extending your skills while helping?

 =09By the way - that last sentence is an open call to anyone
 =09else on the list who has time and interest but who doesn't
 =09think they have found the best (or any :) way to apply
 =09them towards NetBSD...

 =09=09David/absolute       -- No hype required --