Subject: Re: Desktop application agenda
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Przemys=C5=82aw_Pawe=C5=82czyk?= <firstname.lastname@example.org>
From: David Brownlee <abs@NetBSD.org>
Date: 04/14/2007 01:39:31
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, Przemys=C5=82aw Pawe=C5=82czyk wrote:
>> =09So, in what areas can this be improved
>> =09c) Improving the pkgsrc infrastructure, in particular having
>> an option for a standard NetBSD install to automatically pull
>> =09 in packages from pkgsrc, via binary packages initially and
>> =09 later via filling in the holes via src where needed.
>> =09 _This_ is where I think the real win would be
> I'm all for it! And vice-versa, to pull binaries (if exist), not
> sources, for every dependency during compilation.
=09Absolutely, though as with many things there is the danger of
=09just focusing on a solution which provides everything, which
=09is so much work it never happens, as opposed to smaller steps
=09on the way to a final solution, each of which a really useful
=09on their own right. Such as pkg_select -
>> =09d) Having more choice of NetBSD installations which come
>> =09 preconfigured with useful applications.
> That's what I pointed out, to no avail.
=09How an idea is presented can affect it reception :) Appearing
=09to advocate adding a large number of applications to the
=09existing NetBSD distribution, is going to make those who
=09want the very lean install unhappy, while still not providing
=09enough for everybody unless you include all of KDE plus all
=09of gnome, plus... well, all of pkgsrc
=09NetBSD already ships OS CD images and download, plus similar
=09for pkgsrc, the obvious next step is to include something
=09like pkg_select in the base system, and offer to run it
=09automatically after install.
=09If installing from CD and there are any binary packages on
=09the CD it could offer to install them all, or a selection,
=09or it could download packages from a full pkgsrc build.
=09NetBSD could offer 'minimal' ISO images virtually the same
=09size as they are now, plus OS+pkgsrc images where appropriate,
=09and a very easy mechanism where someone can take the base
=09OS distribution, plus their preferred selection of binary
=09packages and combine them into their own install image.
>> =09 While I think 'c)' is more useful, this is also a win.
>> =09 Interestingly we have pkgsrc/sysutils/mklivecd which
>> allows custom live CDs to be built. I think having an option to
>> =09 put an installer on that would be very interesting,
>> =09 particularly when combined with c).
> Revolution's coming! I still don't believe my eyes.
=09Evolution maybe more then revolution... all when people
=09can put in the time. I think you'll find that the most
=09people are not against what you want from a NetBSD
=09distribution, they are just adverse to being told (or at
=09least appearing to be told) that the existing setup which
=09works very well for them is junk and needs to be replaced.
=09Fortunately we can (and IMHO should) be able to fulfill both
>> =09 Note d) is a _perfect_ area where someone can experiment
>> =09 and when they have something which works for them and
>> =09 others they can come back and say "look at this, would
>> =09 it not be good if we could add this as an option to the
>> =09 official NetBSD releases"
> Nooooo, you're kidding? Right?
=09The NetBSD ftp server already hosts the live CD image made
=09by freeX ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/iso/livecd/ and
=09pkgsrc has the mklivecd and pkg_select packages, and NetBSD
=09has within the last release or so imported tools into the
=09base system to allow the standard release build to include
=09So... whats missing?
=09- Getting pkg_select (or possibly some other tool) ready
=09 to be run at the end of a NetBSD install and adding it
=09 to the base system - pkg_select is small and has no
=09 awkward dependencies
=09- Adjusting pkgsrc/sysutils/mklivecd to be able to include
=09 a copy of the NetBSD OS distribution, or at the very least
=09 to be able to run sysinst so it can download and install
=09 NetBSD (including the 'pkg_select or similar at the end')
=09- Someone after each NetBSD release and probably pkgsrc
=09 stable branch taking the latest OS release and running
=09 pkgsrc/sysutils/mklivecd with the right options to make
=09 a new 'live+install' CD
=09I'm not saying "this is what will happen", more "this is
=09one thing that could happen", and I think its quite reasonable
>> =09People want different things from NetBSD. We need to try to
>> pick directions which can give the most people "what they want", and
>> =09I think c) and d) from the above are two options in that.
>>> Perhaps your "hate" makes you "blind" and you didn't notice what
>>> I really said. _That I'm not using NetBSD. I'm using applications
>>> running under control of operating system, here NetBSD._
>> =09I think your phrasing may be off-putting to some. hate is
>> quite a strong word, and people are likely to focus on that word and
>> =09your message may be lost.
> That's right. But I said it before - some pay attention to form,
> not to e-mail text nitty-gritty.
>> =09Another way of phrase it might have been:
>> =09"Perhaps your strong views against the idea of "bloating"
>> =09NetBSD meant you missed my main point. _That I'm not using
>> =09NetBSD. I'm using applications running under control of
>> =09operating system, here NetBSD._"
> Let it be then. If it only secure results from all the mess with
> Mr. Pawe=C5=82czyk's ideas.
=09Could I take a step back here - you appear to have a lot
=09of enthusiasm and energy and want to help NetBSD. In what
=09areas do you think you have the best skills to help, or
=09are interesting in extending your skills while helping?
=09By the way - that last sentence is an open call to anyone
=09else on the list who has time and interest but who doesn't
=09think they have found the best (or any :) way to apply
=09them towards NetBSD...
=09=09David/absolute -- www.NetBSD.org: No hype required --