Subject: Re: Desktop application agenda
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Przemys=C5=82aw_Pawe=C5=82czyk?= <firstname.lastname@example.org>
From: David Brownlee <abs@NetBSD.org>
Date: 04/14/2007 00:07:39
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, Przemys=C5=82aw Pawe=C5=82czyk wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:01:03 -0700
> "Andy Ruhl" <email@example.com> wrote:
>> On 4/13/07, Przemys=C5=82aw Pawe=C5=82czyk <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
>>> I'd like to know if a few desktop flavors of NetBSD were
>>> debated during "setting future development" session of some sort.
>>> What "policy" in this matter, if ever, emerged from the talks or
>> NetBSD is an operating system with a rather minimal set of
>> applications that allow it to function in some sort of way. You're
>> talking about application stuff. This is within the realm of pkgsrc,
>> not NetBSD. It's got nothing to do with the base NetBSD system. NetBSD
>> doesn't have to "decide" any of this stuff about desktops and
>> applications. If you want them, add them yourself. If they aren't in
>> pkgsrc, then work on getting them in there. Period.
> Right to the point. Thanks. Perhaps I'm too young, so tell me please,
> have you ever found operating system useful without any applications?
=09Useful is in the eye of the beholder - if I wanted to setup
=09a simple 'pf' firewall box then a standard NetBSD distribution
=09is just fine, the same applies if I wanted to build a NetBSD
=09release for a different system, or build 4000 packages from
=09If I wanted a box to connect up to my TV to run freevo,
=09kde and suchlike for my partner then I need a whole bunch
=09of other applications on that box, if I want something for
=09a sparc5 or a small disk old laptop... if need a different
=09set of apps.
=09So, what does NetBSD try to do:
=09i) Provide a base system which is capable of rebuilding itself
=09 and anything else via pkgsrc. It historically came with basic
=09 admin, server and network tools.
=09ii) Make it easy to add a large number of additional applications
=09 via pkgsrc
=09So, in what areas can this be improved
=09a) Adding more applications/features to the base NetBSD system
=09 This is one tricky, as the question is what. Hardware support
=09 is generally a good case, as is protocol support, and security
=09 features, but above that you end up in a battle between people
=09 with different priorities.
=09b) Adding more applications to pkgrsc. If people use it, and its
=09 not a completely hopeless, fast moving, bug ridden loss or
=09 has an unworkable licence, then it should probably be in pkgsrc
=09c) Improving the pkgsrc infrastructure, in particular having an
=09 option for a standard NetBSD install to automatically pull
=09 in packages from pkgsrc, via binary packages initially and
=09 later via filling in the holes via src where needed.
=09 _This_ is where I think the real win would be
=09d) Having more choice of NetBSD installations which come
=09 preconfigured with useful applications.
=09 While I think 'c)' is more useful, this is also a win.
=09 Interestingly we have pkgsrc/sysutils/mklivecd which allows
=09 custom live cds to be built. I think having an option to
=09 put an installer on that would be very interesting,
=09 particularly when combined with c).
=09 Note d) is a _perfect_ area where someone can experiment
=09 and when they have something which works for them and
=09 others they can come back and say "look at this, would
=09 it not be good if we could add this as an option to the
=09 official NetBSD releases"
>> I hate to say it, but I've been reading a lot of your emails and in
>> many of them you make assertions about how things should be, but you
>> lack a fundamental understanding of what the project really is.
> Maybe I didn't do my homework or voluminous NetBSD WWW lost a view
> what important information or system features "should" be conveyed to
> users first. Or to emphasize them. For the next time you seem to
> distract everybody from the true subject or discourage me from asking
> questions. No wonder NetBSD is slowly dying...
> I want to do something. But I want to do with you (plural) and according
> to some rules. So I ask. Why there is so many "hate" on your side? Why
> do you twist letters' subjects driving them to personal paths? Why do
> you think that only your view on NetBSD is correct and mine bad? Have
> you been touched by God?
=09People want different things from NetBSD. We need to try to pick
=09directions which can give the most people "what they want", and
=09I think c) and d) from the above are two options in that.
>> of some group of software. If that's what you want it to be, you can
>> make it that way yourself. NetBSD should remain mostly how it is, in
>> my opinion.
> Perhaps your "hate" makes you "blind" and you didn't notice what
> I really said. _That I'm not using NetBSD. I'm using applications
> running under control of operating system, here NetBSD._
=09I think your phrasing may be offputting to some. hate is quite
=09a strong word, and people are likely to focus on that word and
=09your message may be lost.
=09Another way of phrase it might have been:
=09"Perhaps your strong views against the idea of "bloating"
=09NetBSD meant you missed my main point. _That I'm not using
=09NetBSD. I'm using applications running under control of
=09operating system, here NetBSD._"
=09=09David/absolute -- www.NetBSD.org: No hype required --