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Przemysław Pawełczyk wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 10:35:01 +0200 (CEST)
> Lasse Hillerøe Petersen <lhp@toft-hp.dk> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Let me emphesized some point from your "rant":
> 1)
>> Back when I started using NetBSD, one of the things that impressed me
>> was the quality of the documentation. Today, I have problems finding
>> my way around. Definitely this must also be the case for new users.
i don't have this problem it's probably matter of taste.
> 
> 2)
>> We don't need a dumbed down NetBSD for desktop users. What we need is
>> better documentation of how to customise a NetBSD+pkgsrc installation
>> to make a good desktop system. Or a good Mail/Web/Database/File
>> server. Or a good laptop system. Or a good virtualization system. And
>> so on. I think this could be a(nother) place where NetBSD could
>> distinguish itself from other systems.
IMHO this is more user specific documetation. This is more related to wiki I think.
>>
>> I don't know how this can be achieved. As Thor Lancelot Simon has
>> pointed out in a different thread, it is important that the official
>> NetBSD documentation is of consistent quality and carefully checked.
>> This means that any user contributions will have to be reviewed and
>> edited by people who can ensure this.
> 
> PP's suggestion in answer to 1) and 2):
> I see a need for new WWW. Think of it as a 2nd tier of
> documentation, or a wrapper to existing sources. The existing texts are
> in so great numbers and so intertwined that any attempt to correct "the
> mass" is impossible from practical point of view..

For me netbsd is good old style page, I don't like new freebsd page layout it's
too futuristic :(. On our page everything is quickly available.

> 3)
>> I have been thinking for some time about whether I could set up a
>> machine with Xen, running WindowsXP, NetBSD and Linux, and perhaps
>> also some TV-tuner hardware. I have hesitated, because I know I will
>> not succeed without help. Lots of help. But if I could have a "free
>> pass" for asking the experts about all the "stupid" problems that
>> will pop up, in return for a commitment to produce a detailed report
>> about my experience, including a step-by-step how-to, I might
>> consider it an interesting challenge. The report could then be
>> reviewed by the "tutor" developers before being published on the
>> NetBSD website, probably in a special "User Report" or "NetBSD Best
>> Practices" section.
> 
> PP's suggestion in answer to 3):
> First. One of major changes I think needs to be applied is another left
> menu (see official website) chapter which I temporarily called "NetBSD
> in Practise". Look into Gallery page. How many useful information from
> Lasse point of view is hidden (yes, "hidden"!) from main view under
> misleading name of "Gallery". See how wonderfully Lesse's "NetBSD Best
> Pracices" is placing into the new scheme?!
> 
> Second. I think the "Support" menu chapter should split into two
> sections (left menu chapters): "Support" and "Community". I provide
> details later, this time I'll address Lasse's remarks.

this sounds good for me. Community can links to unofficial netbsd forum/wiki pages.



> 4.a)
>> That was one idea to produce possibly useful new docs. Here's another
>> idea, for improving what we have: There has been some very successful
>> "bugathons", that have benefited the code. How about a "docathon",
>> that could do the same with focus on the documentation?

Can be I will join this effort.

> PP's suggestion in answer to 4.a):
> As I said before: first the decision on future WWW layout ought to be
> issued. "Printing" new docu pages without a vision on "targeted"
> users or clear structure is pointless. Only corrections to "old" texts
> would have much sense, nothing more over it.

As i said above I like this page layout but I know that I'm not alone here.
NetBSD page need fresh air :), but I don't want drastic changes.

> 4.b)
>> In more general terms, I think what I would like to know is this: how
>> can I
>> - as a user - contribute usefully to the NetBSD project, without
>> becoming a developer or simply donating money? Maybe we should have
>> some sort of NetBSD User Manifesto
Please explain more I don't understand. You sit down to your computer ,wrote
patch and sent it to appropriate list that's all.

> PP's suggestion in answer to 4.b):
> As some programmers are too touchy, as every artist ;-), a sort of "docu
> avenue" (communication link: users <-> developers) should be
> established.
> 
> One could say that after all there are mailing list specialized
> categories, we users can write to www mainteiners ("Contuct us" link at
> the bottom of every docu page), the invitation for cooperation in
> creation/maintaining docu pages may be found on many pages, etc.
> 
> But the NetBSD documentation reckon as a whole shows deficiency. I have
> a vision what I think would improve NetBSD documentation because I did
> WWWs and wikis in my life, and I'm active Internet user from 90s.
> And tell me now please, with all my good will and the "wonderfull"
> vision [ ;-) ] to who's doors I should knock at? NetBSD Project's
> mailing list has forked into zillions subcategories that What I've
> chosen to have been heard the only selection at those circumstation -
> netbsd-users@ What about netbsd-docs@? Is it equally "populated"?

http://netbsd.org/People/groups/ here you can find list of people which are in
www netbsd goup.

> In other words I postulate to create "Docu Task Force" (DTF) within the
> NetBSD Project circles. For the task only, even if for a month, until
> our fervor will die down... If DTF sets sound framework we all will be
> beneficiaries of the changes, both developers, and users. But this is
> Lasse's idea.

This is good for me, netbsd can have benefit from this.

> 5)
>> Such a manifesto could also ease the latent conflict I perceive in
>> another thread: "When NetBSD 4.0?", where I see P. P. wrote on March
>> 21: "And me, as user, have the rights to ask and to demand." A
>> sentiment I understand and maybe even share to a degree, although I
>> also understand perfectly why voluntary developers would disagree
>> strongly, even to the point of reacting to such a brash statement by
>> resigning from a project.
> 
> PP's suggestion in answer to 5):
> I didn't think someone could be so touchy. I'm stil convinced that
> if a project was made public not for reading and to admire but for
> __use__ it is not immune from criticism. Not only from complaints and
> dissaprovals, but from "demands" as well. If one want to get rid the
> "nasty" users ("nasty" in his view of a guru - "how he dared to
> complain!") then he should encapsulated the project and contained it
> within a close group of friends. Period.
> 
>> Am I saying something useful, or just making a fool of myself here? I
>> don't know - please tell me what you think.
> Well, well.. Flattering yourself... ;-) My answer: another dreamer. ;-)
> 
>> Oh, I almost forgot that a vote on a proposal was requested by P.P.
>> +1 because I think the page in question can be improved
>> -1 because I think P.P.'s proposed version doesn't improve it by much.
>> So all in all, I abstain. :-)
> No, abstains, please! :-)
> Do you think that my "ISO lists" are not more logical than original
> ones? I don't believe. :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> pp
> 
> --
> Przemysław Pawełczyk <pp@kv.net.pl>

This is my two cents.

Regards

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