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On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 10:35:01 +0200 (CEST)
Lasse Hillerøe Petersen <lhp@toft-hp.dk> wrote:

Hi,
Let me emphesized some point from your "rant":
1)
> Back when I started using NetBSD, one of the things that impressed me
> was the quality of the documentation. Today, I have problems finding
> my way around. Definitely this must also be the case for new users.

2)
> We don't need a dumbed down NetBSD for desktop users. What we need is
> better documentation of how to customise a NetBSD+pkgsrc installation
> to make a good desktop system. Or a good Mail/Web/Database/File
> server. Or a good laptop system. Or a good virtualization system. And
> so on. I think this could be a(nother) place where NetBSD could
> distinguish itself from other systems.
>
> I don't know how this can be achieved. As Thor Lancelot Simon has
> pointed out in a different thread, it is important that the official
> NetBSD documentation is of consistent quality and carefully checked.
> This means that any user contributions will have to be reviewed and
> edited by people who can ensure this.

PP's suggestion in answer to 1) and 2):
I see a need for new WWW. Think of it as a 2nd tier of
documentation, or a wrapper to existing sources. The existing texts are
in so great numbers and so intertwined that any attempt to correct "the
mass" is impossible from practical point of view..

3)
> I have been thinking for some time about whether I could set up a
> machine with Xen, running WindowsXP, NetBSD and Linux, and perhaps
> also some TV-tuner hardware. I have hesitated, because I know I will
> not succeed without help. Lots of help. But if I could have a "free
> pass" for asking the experts about all the "stupid" problems that
> will pop up, in return for a commitment to produce a detailed report
> about my experience, including a step-by-step how-to, I might
> consider it an interesting challenge. The report could then be
> reviewed by the "tutor" developers before being published on the
> NetBSD website, probably in a special "User Report" or "NetBSD Best
> Practices" section.

PP's suggestion in answer to 3):
First. One of major changes I think needs to be applied is another left
menu (see official website) chapter which I temporarily called "NetBSD
in Practise". Look into Gallery page. How many useful information from
Lasse point of view is hidden (yes, "hidden"!) from main view under
misleading name of "Gallery". See how wonderfully Lesse's "NetBSD Best
Pracices" is placing into the new scheme?!

Second. I think the "Support" menu chapter should split into two
sections (left menu chapters): "Support" and "Community". I provide
details later, this time I'll address Lasse's remarks.

4.a)
> That was one idea to produce possibly useful new docs. Here's another
> idea, for improving what we have: There has been some very successful
> "bugathons", that have benefited the code. How about a "docathon",
> that could do the same with focus on the documentation?

PP's suggestion in answer to 4.a):
As I said before: first the decision on future WWW layout ought to be
issued. "Printing" new docu pages without a vision on "targeted"
users or clear structure is pointless. Only corrections to "old" texts
would have much sense, nothing more over it.

4.b)
> In more general terms, I think what I would like to know is this: how
> can I
> - as a user - contribute usefully to the NetBSD project, without
> becoming a developer or simply donating money? Maybe we should have
> some sort of NetBSD User Manifesto

PP's suggestion in answer to 4.b):
As some programmers are too touchy, as every artist ;-), a sort of "docu
avenue" (communication link: users <-> developers) should be
established.

One could say that after all there are mailing list specialized
categories, we users can write to www mainteiners ("Contuct us" link at
the bottom of every docu page), the invitation for cooperation in
creation/maintaining docu pages may be found on many pages, etc.

But the NetBSD documentation reckon as a whole shows deficiency. I have
a vision what I think would improve NetBSD documentation because I did
WWWs and wikis in my life, and I'm active Internet user from 90s.
And tell me now please, with all my good will and the "wonderfull"
vision [ ;-) ] to who's doors I should knock at? NetBSD Project's
mailing list has forked into zillions subcategories that What I've
chosen to have been heard the only selection at those circumstation -
netbsd-users@ What about netbsd-docs@? Is it equally "populated"?

In other words I postulate to create "Docu Task Force" (DTF) within the
NetBSD Project circles. For the task only, even if for a month, until
our fervor will die down... If DTF sets sound framework we all will be
beneficiaries of the changes, both developers, and users. But this is
Lasse's idea.

5)
> Such a manifesto could also ease the latent conflict I perceive in
> another thread: "When NetBSD 4.0?", where I see P. P. wrote on March
> 21: "And me, as user, have the rights to ask and to demand." A
> sentiment I understand and maybe even share to a degree, although I
> also understand perfectly why voluntary developers would disagree
> strongly, even to the point of reacting to such a brash statement by
> resigning from a project.

PP's suggestion in answer to 5):
I didn't think someone could be so touchy. I'm stil convinced that
if a project was made public not for reading and to admire but for
__use__ it is not immune from criticism. Not only from complaints and
dissaprovals, but from "demands" as well. If one want to get rid the
"nasty" users ("nasty" in his view of a guru - "how he dared to
complain!") then he should encapsulated the project and contained it
within a close group of friends. Period.

> Am I saying something useful, or just making a fool of myself here? I
> don't know - please tell me what you think.
Well, well.. Flattering yourself... ;-) My answer: another dreamer. ;-)

> Oh, I almost forgot that a vote on a proposal was requested by P.P.
> +1 because I think the page in question can be improved
> -1 because I think P.P.'s proposed version doesn't improve it by much.
> So all in all, I abstain. :-)
No, abstains, please! :-)
Do you think that my "ISO lists" are not more logical than original
ones? I don't believe. :-)

Cheers,
pp

--
Przemysław Pawełczyk <pp@kv.net.pl>

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