Subject: Re: Re: Final plug for extra utilities
To: matthew sporleder <msporleder@gmail.com>
From: Erik Berls <cyber@ono-sendai.com>
List: netbsd-users
Date: 09/02/2006 10:06:09
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Alternately, we could make packages a "required" framework and install any
utilities as part of views.  (Thus making /usr/pkg being as required as
/usr/lib or /usr/share.  One could take it to the logical extreme and build
the entire system in a pkg views type of framework.)

-=erik.


On 9/2/06, matthew sporleder <msporleder@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 9/1/06, Ben Collver <collver@peak.org> wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 10:06:05PM -0400, matthew sporleder wrote:
> > > >perl:
> > > >    I'm revoking this one. Perl is too large and complicated, and
> it's
> > > >    not required.
> > > Yes, operating systems that include perl/java/python/etc are just
> > > forcing someone to maintain two versions on their system and confuse
> > > everyone a lot.
> >
> > I've seen cluster nodes with a dozen "virtual servers", some of which
> > had multiple versions of Perl with specific build options desired by
> > specific developers.  The administrators didn't get confused.
> >
> > But having it built in leads me to wonder if it can be removed, or
> > properly upgraded.  For example, parts of Gentoo may depend on Python,
> > or parts of OSX may depend on a JVM.  How can one argue in this case
> > that it shouldn't be built in?
> >
>
> The situation goes like this:
> My very important OS utility X depends on Y.
> Y becomes old, out-of-date, insecure.
> In parallel, the OS becomes old, but not really out-of-date.  (OS's
> have more useful life than one version of perl)
> New tool Z needs updates Y, I now need two Y's.
>
> Having two Y's now means I need to mess around with #!/path/to/Y
> because, of course, my OS installed old Y in the most common place.
> :)
>
> If you can -avoid- these dependencies all together, you're in a much
> better situation to stay out of that mess.
>

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Alternately, we could make packages a &quot;required&quot; framework and install any utilities as part of views.&nbsp; (Thus making /usr/pkg being as required as /usr/lib or /usr/share.&nbsp; One could take it to the logical extreme and build the entire system in a pkg views type of framework.)
<br><br>-=erik.<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/2/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">matthew sporleder</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:msporleder@gmail.com">msporleder@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On 9/1/06, Ben Collver &lt;<a href="mailto:collver@peak.org">collver@peak.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 10:06:05PM -0400, matthew sporleder wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;perl:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I'm revoking this one. Perl is too large and complicated, and it's
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;not required.<br>&gt; &gt; Yes, operating systems that include perl/java/python/etc are just<br>&gt; &gt; forcing someone to maintain two versions on their system and confuse<br>&gt; &gt; everyone a lot.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I've seen cluster nodes with a dozen &quot;virtual servers&quot;, some of which<br>&gt; had multiple versions of Perl with specific build options desired by<br>&gt; specific developers.&nbsp;&nbsp;The administrators didn't get confused.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; But having it built in leads me to wonder if it can be removed, or<br>&gt; properly upgraded.&nbsp;&nbsp;For example, parts of Gentoo may depend on Python,<br>&gt; or parts of OSX may depend on a JVM.&nbsp;&nbsp;How can one argue in this case
<br>&gt; that it shouldn't be built in?<br>&gt;<br><br>The situation goes like this:<br>My very important OS utility X depends on Y.<br>Y becomes old, out-of-date, insecure.<br>In parallel, the OS becomes old, but not really out-of-date.&nbsp;&nbsp;(OS's
<br>have more useful life than one version of perl)<br>New tool Z needs updates Y, I now need two Y's.<br><br>Having two Y's now means I need to mess around with #!/path/to/Y<br>because, of course, my OS installed old Y in the most common place.
<br>:)<br><br>If you can -avoid- these dependencies all together, you're in a much<br>better situation to stay out of that mess.<br></blockquote></div><br>

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