Subject: RE: [open-source] Sun to start charging for Star Office
To: 'David Maxwell' <david@vex.net>
From: Stephane St Hilaire <ssthilaire@hyperchip.com>
List: netbsd-users
Date: 04/04/2002 17:22:02
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Maxwell [mailto:david@vex.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 12:28 AM
> To: Stephane St Hilaire
> Cc: 'Iggy Drougge'; David Lawler Christiansen (NT); netbsd-users
> Subject: Re: [open-source] Sun to start charging for Star Office
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 02:43:13PM -0500, Stephane St Hilaire wrote:
> Stephane, you seem to not be considering a problem that I find to be a
> major one in your point of view. Most people aren't capable of
> exercising good judgement about when and how to use such features.
Why would you want e-mail from such people anyway, regardless of it's format
? I mean if in your view most people lack judgment then why would you want
to communicate with them ? They probably shouldn't have the right to use
computers either ?
>
> Blinking, colourful, giant text may look 'neat' to some, but
> only serves
> to detract from the content of their messages. As a classic
> example, go
> look at the first document most people create in a page layout
> program... and count the different fonts...
If it detracts from the content than too bad. Sometimes the proper use of
underlines/bold can actually help get your point accross.
> That's two different debates. If you wish to discuss what future
> standards will be, there are forums for that (somewhere else). In the
Just like I would assume that there are forums better for MS bashing
> same way that two people speaking a language other than that known by
> the rest of the people in the room may be considered rude - attempting
> to force non-standard content formatting could also be
> considered rude.
I'm not doing it anyway but I've seen some blokes get rather "rude" (no
careful consideration required) when they got something else than "pure"
ASCII in their mailboxes. As for standard isn't HTML one anyway ?
> > > Indeed, I think that you're (if you'd like to stand up as an
> > > M$ spokesman)
> > > evil. You're polluting the internet.
> >
> > Polluting a communication medium by making it richer,
> sounds like Devil
> > worship to me. Is IPV6 polluting IPV4 ? Is the color TV
> polluting the black
> > and white set ? By the way we all know that MS is making
> money and is
> > therefore intrinsically evil, we don't need the "satirical"
> dollar sign to
> > know that. Is it supposed to be an "attack" on MS to
> highlight the fact that
> > it is making money ?
>
> Those comparisons are flawed. IPV6 doesn't (yet) stop me from
> accessing
> hosts I want to reach. Color TV signals were designed to still display
> properly on black & white sets - people didn't have to
> upgrade their B&W
> sets to still get B&W - it _just worked_.
Ok let's talk about CDs and records then. DVDs vs Videos. Do you now
understand what I'm talking about ? Technology evolves. Technology is not an
art form it's not better because it's older or more restrictive.
> >
> > Most users like to have the ability to choose font,
> emphasize and so fourth.
> > Why a technological company would stick to 30 year old
> "standards" is beyond
> > me unless they want to become dinosaurs and have few users and few
> > applications running on their systems (the obvious key to success).
>
> Let's throw out English too - people have been using it for
> far too long.
Historically "leading" languages have changed through time and it may happen
again in the future. Still I don't see what that has to do with anything.
The written press has had the ability to italicize, underline, emphasize
words for more than a century, it is laughable that this is not supported in
a "standard" way across all e-mail software today. Perhaps you think there
is a value in keeping e-mail that limited, but I don't see it. It's a matter
of taste.
>
> > I have however one question for David:
> > I can personally understand that a Microsoft employee would
> get slightly
> > annoyed with the witless boring MS bashing that goes on in
> this list when
> > there's basically little justification for it (seeing how
> actively Ms is
>
> Wow. If the government decided tomorrow that all government
> communications will be conducted in Esperanto from now on - thereby
> forcing everyone to 'upgrade' their language skills, don't you think
> that would deserve some bashing?
School's exist today. You're going to tell me that you were never forced to
learn anything ?
And to answer your question: no. If you want to work in the government
you're going to have to learn government stuff (aren't some states are now
forcing government employees to speek spanish/mexican or something due to
the amount of border immigrants ?).
Still Ms is not forcing anyone to do anything, you can allways press delete
when you get a HTM e-mail if your client still doesn't support this format.
>
> When a solution that works _better_ is available, people will
> naturally
> switch to it.
It is occuring right now.
> Microsoft does not operate that way. While the
> technology
> exists to define things like standard, extensible file
> formats, MS would
> rather define a new one with each MS Office release. How many office
Does MS have to do everything ? Do you know of any other company that has
defined/supported such a standard extensible format (Adobe perhaps said they
would but did they deliver ?).
> 2000 documents did you receive, and contact the sender to say
> 'Sorry, I
> can't open that - could you save it as word97 for me?' before you gave
> up, and were forced to buy the new product?
I would probably just download the free viewer from their web site.
>
> --
> David Maxwell, david@vex.net|david@maxwell.net --> Mastery of
> UNIX, like
> mastery of language, offers real freedom. The price of
> freedom is always dear,
> but there's no substitute. Personally, I'd rather pay for my
> freedom than live
> in a bitmapped, pop-up-happy dungeon like NT. - Thomas Scoville
>
I have to assume this quote predates the arrival of Gnome and other
desktops.....
I'll leave it at that. It's not like this is going to impact the future of
e-mail or anything.
Steph
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> From: David Maxwell [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:david@vex.net">mailto:david@vex.net</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 12:28 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> To: Stephane St Hilaire</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Cc: 'Iggy Drougge'; David Lawler Christiansen =
(NT); netbsd-users</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Subject: Re: [open-source] Sun to start =
charging for Star Office</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 02:43:13PM -0500, =
Stephane St Hilaire wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Stephane, you seem to not be considering a =
problem that I find to be a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> major one in your point of view. Most people =
aren't capable of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> exercising good judgement about when and how to =
use such features. </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Why would you want e-mail from such people anyway, =
regardless of it's format ? I mean if in your view most people lack =
judgment then why would you want to communicate with them ? They =
probably shouldn't have the right to use computers either ?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Blinking, colourful, giant text may look 'neat' =
to some, but </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> only serves</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> to detract from the content of their messages. =
As a classic </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> example, go</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> look at the first document most people create =
in a page layout</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> program... and count the different =
fonts...</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If it detracts from the content than too bad. =
Sometimes the proper use of underlines/bold can actually help get your =
point accross.</FONT></P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> That's two different debates. If you wish to =
discuss what future</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> standards will be, there are forums for that =
(somewhere else). In the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Just like I would assume that there are forums =
better for MS bashing</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> same way that two people speaking a language =
other than that known by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the rest of the people in the room may be =
considered rude - attempting</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> to force non-standard content formatting could =
also be </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> considered rude.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'm not doing it anyway but I've seen some blokes =
get rather "rude" (no careful consideration required) when =
they got something else than "pure" ASCII in their mailboxes. =
As for standard isn't HTML one anyway ?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > > Indeed, I think that you're (if you'd =
like to stand up as an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > > M$ spokesman)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > > evil. You're polluting the internet. =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > Polluting a communication medium by making =
it richer, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> sounds like Devil</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > worship to me. Is IPV6 polluting IPV4 ? Is =
the color TV </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> polluting the black</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > and white set ? By the way we all know =
that MS is making </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> money and is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > therefore intrinsically evil, we don't =
need the "satirical" </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> dollar sign to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > know that. Is it supposed to be an =
"attack" on MS to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> highlight the fact that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > it is making money ?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Those comparisons are flawed. IPV6 doesn't =
(yet) stop me from </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> accessing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> hosts I want to reach. Color TV signals were =
designed to still display</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> properly on black & white sets - people =
didn't have to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> upgrade their B&W</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> sets to still get B&W - it _just =
worked_.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ok let's talk about CDs and records then. DVDs vs =
Videos. Do you now understand what I'm talking about ? Technology =
evolves. Technology is not an art form it's not better because it's =
older or more restrictive.</FONT></P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > Most users like to have the ability to =
choose font, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> emphasize and so fourth.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > Why a technological company would stick to =
30 year old </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> "standards" is beyond</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > me unless they want to become dinosaurs =
and have few users and few</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > applications running on their systems (the =
obvious key to success).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Let's throw out English too - people have been =
using it for </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> far too long.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Historically "leading" languages have =
changed through time and it may happen again in the future. Still I =
don't see what that has to do with anything. The written press has had =
the ability to italicize, underline, emphasize words for more than a =
century, it is laughable that this is not supported in a =
"standard" way across all e-mail software today. Perhaps you =
think there is a value in keeping e-mail that limited, but I don't see =
it. It's a matter of taste.</FONT></P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > I have however one question for =
David:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > I can personally understand that a =
Microsoft employee would </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> get slightly</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > annoyed with the witless boring MS bashing =
that goes on in </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> this list when</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > there's basically little justification for =
it (seeing how </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> actively Ms is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Wow. If the government decided tomorrow that =
all government</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> communications will be conducted in Esperanto =
from now on - thereby</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> forcing everyone to 'upgrade' their language =
skills, don't you think</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> that would deserve some bashing? </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>School's exist today. You're going to tell me that =
you were never forced to learn anything ?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>And to answer your question: no. If you want to work =
in the government you're going to have to learn government stuff =
(aren't some states are now forcing government employees to speek =
spanish/mexican or something due to the amount of border immigrants =
?).</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Still Ms is not forcing anyone to do anything, you =
can allways press delete when you get a HTM e-mail if your client still =
doesn't support this format.</FONT></P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> When a solution that works _better_ is =
available, people will </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> naturally</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> switch to it. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>It is occuring right now.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Microsoft does not operate that way. While the =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> technology</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> exists to define things like standard, =
extensible file </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> formats, MS would</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> rather define a new one with each MS Office =
release. How many office</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Does MS have to do everything ? Do you know of any =
other company that has defined/supported such a standard extensible =
format (Adobe perhaps said they would but did they deliver =
?).</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 2000 documents did you receive, and contact the =
sender to say </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 'Sorry, I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> can't open that - could you save it as word97 =
for me?' before you gave</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> up, and were forced to buy the new =
product?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I would probably just download the free viewer from =
their web site.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> -- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> David Maxwell, david@vex.net|david@maxwell.net =
--> Mastery of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> UNIX, like</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> mastery of language, offers real freedom. The =
price of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> freedom is always dear,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> but there's no substitute. Personally, I'd =
rather pay for my </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> freedom than live</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> in a bitmapped, pop-up-happy dungeon like NT. - =
Thomas Scoville </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I have to assume this quote predates the arrival of =
Gnome and other desktops.....</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'll leave it at that. It's not like this is going to =
impact the future of e-mail or anything.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Steph</FONT>
</P>
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