On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:51:56PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 11:58 AM 1/19/2001, Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> >Brett is a nice example here; if I had to psycho-analyze him
> >(which I don't have the credentials to do, despite having helped
> >several people study for a Master's in Psychiatric Socialwork,
> >and having read everything they've read), I'd say that Brett is
> >still here because FreeBSD is the closest social organization to
> >what he wants to have come into existance.  He can agree or he
> >can disagree, that's only my opinion right now, with the evidence
> >at hand.
> 
> Actually, there are other social structures that I'd prefer for an 
> open source operating system project.

Start a project. (I intend to.) The evolution of social
structures doesn't have to end here.

The value of opensource software doen't have to end with operating
systems.


					 I work with the BSDs because
> they are technologically sophisticated and their licensing (unlike
> that of Linux) is ethical. I am greatly concerned about the BSDs'
> reliance on the GNU toolchain and (in some cases) on GNU userland
> utilities. FreeBSD uses the most GNU software, and this disturbs
> me because it puts it most at the mercy of an organization whose 
> agenda requires the ultimate destruction of all alternatives -- 
> including all of the BSDs.

How long does it take for something as big as FreeBSD to make
even a small course change? Big ships have big rudders. Steady,
long term, positive interaction with the project may cause
and outcome you like. Maybe not.

In regard to GNU;
The processor is closed source. The operating system is open
source. The line between has to be drawn somewhere?

In a way, I'm supprised that the instruction set isn't licensed.

> 
> I work with FreeBSD a fair amount of the time because it has 
> features that I often need. (When size or simplicity is an issue, 
> I use NetBSD or OpenBSD, because they remain closer to the
> KISS philosophy that was prevalent at CSRG. Also, I can 
> squash their kernels and userlands into a smaller space, which
> is helpful for some of the embedded applications I do.) I
> monitor these lists because I need to keep informed about
> features, security advisories, etc. I participate in the
> conversations here because I can sometimes be helpful to fellow 
> users and administrators and often learn things. The pissing
> contests I endure on the lists are their biggest drawback.

You learn from people, the products of people, or from the
pissing match. What else is there?

> 
> I'd like to influence the future direction and philosophy
> of FreeBSD, but even simple and seemingly obvious suggestions
> in these areas seem to be met with strong resistance. The 
> "leaders" are so territorial and resistant to outside 
> suggestions that they'll reject ideas that come from outside 
> the core group -- and, in particular, from me because
> I've been labeled as "dangerous."

In this context, how dangerous can an idea be? I imagine
that depends on the idea, and the target audience for the
idea.


				    So, my best success has come
> when I've been able to get one of those leaders to say, "That's
> a great idea; glad I thought of it!" Unfortunately, the kinds
> of ideas that can be introduced via this technique are
> limited. The absolute WORST way to bring up an idea, I've
> found, is on the mailing lists -- which is a shame because 
> they're the community's primary avenues of communication. 
> 

Maybe being a martyr is your cause? Maybe the reality of the
situation can't be aproximated in email?

Maybe you suffer from the same issues as the "leaders"?

Do I mean to suggest these things? No, they could all apply to
any of us. It just seems that what people say differs more 
than what people *are*.

If this project is different things to different people,
it only follows that what people say will never agree.

> I'd like to be able to make suggestions directly rather than
> being forced to adopt "stealth" techniques, but it doesn't
> seem possible with the current social climate or leadership.
> The egos are too strong and the combative nature of some of
> the key players prevents it. I hold out a faint hope that 
> there could be open, honest, relaxed, and less ego-laden
> discussion, but sure don't see it on the horizon anytime soon,
> at least for FreeBSD.

Can a person offer a suggestion, without actually hoping that
the suggestion be taken?

Doesn't a unsolicited suggestion then always seek to change
someone's will? To force someone's hand?

> 
> --Brett
> 
> 
> 
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Thanks for the chance to interact, if even in email, [RC]