On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, David Maxwell wrote:

> Not 'write' no, but approve the use of their name.

hah!  seriously?

You mean, sort of like AOL approves of the use of their name on
http://www.aolsucks.org?  We are not a bunch of jellowbellied barbecuing
firework-saluting cop-fearing whimps.  Are we?  Please tell me, No!

But, I'm getting off to an awful start, since the main response I had
after reading your message was one of agreement.  This first part just
really irked me, that's all.

If there is seriously some part of free speech that prevents us from Using
The Name of a Tiny Insignificant Corporatin In Vain, please elucidate me.
Otherwise, let's toss this first point out.

> It would be neat if we could pick a week and release a TNF press
> release on Monday, then for the rest of the week, one large player
> (Digital/Compaq, Apple, ...) plus a longer list of smaller
> companies each day.

This sounds like a neat idea, and a good reason not to immediately insist
on the recognition to which I suspect we are entitled.  This sounds like a
great way to generate positive publicity, particularly with embedded
systems companies that aren't steal^Wusing and improving our code yet.

One problem I see with carrying it out, is that it's difficult for a
loosely-organized group of people to keep things secret and then
``announce'' them.  It will, at the very least, put the burden of making
these rather complicated agreements on the shoulders of a small number of
people--the same people who are likely to be busy doing other things.
Therefore, I don't think what you're suggesting will ever actuallyt
happen. My more impolite approach is much more reasonably implemented with
the people we have available.

Not that I wouldn't love to see something like this pulled off.

Some observations:

 o NetBSD does not treat companies the same way companies treat NetBSD.  I
   am not saying that we are being treated unjustly and should insist on 
   ``justice,'' that companies should repay the ``favours'' we think we're
   doing them.  I definitely _don't_ believe this.

   Rather, I think we have this idea of Justice and Friendlyness and
   Cooperation that works great among ourselves and hopefully among the
   other BSD's as well, but is complete nonsense when it comes to dealing 
   with companies.  Companies do not generally reward NetBSD for being
   friendly.  Absolutely any other consideration immediately takes
   priority over their so-called gratitude.

   Likewise, companies do not punish other Free Software people for
   treating them ``rudely.''  Corel just got beaten mercilessly on 
   Slashdot (1999-11-29 or thereabouts) for violations of the Debian 
   license.  Yet they remain committed to Linux.  Michael Graff mentioned
   the corporate attention OpenBSD gets in spite of being impossible to
   deal with.  If it's profitable to use someone's code, they'll use it, 
   even if all the developers hate it, even if its advocates are
   completely rude and childish asses.

   Our apparent policy of being ``nice'' to companies needs better
   defense.  I think it is a bit naive.  It may be useful on
   frequent occasion, but it is _not_ an ends in and of itself.

 o The Ultimate Goal is not to get lots of people using NetBSD.  The
   Ultimate Goal is to make the NetBSD code that I run and I personally 
   use right here on my own NetBSD box, better code.  That's what I 
   want.  That's what I'm trying to get by writing these emails.
   I don't care whether my neighbor is using NetBSD or not.
   That's his problem.  I just want to be able to do cool stuff with _my_
   NetBSD installation.

   Perhaps I also want a good codebase for eventually doing development
   that I find interesting.  Perhaps I would like to eventually have some 
   chance of making a living working on code that Doesn't Suck.  Or maybe
   I'm even concerned about the future of  the Industry in general.  But 
   about whether the girl sitting to my left uses Linux or NetBSD at home,
   I couldn't care less.  er., well, in general at least.

   We are not a Religion in the sense that we will all go to Berkeley 
   Heaven if we convert lots of Linux Heathens to using NetBSD. 

   So, if Company X:

    o Does not contribute code back to NetBSD
    o Does not contribute money to TNF
    o Does not advertise (or even admit ``publicly'' :) to using) NetBSD

   then what difference does it make to us if they switch to Linux?  I
   personally couldn't care less.  ``Do This, or we will switch to
   Linux,'' is an empty threat in such a case.  Same thing with some cable
   modem porn site/irc server sysadmin fussing for some new feature. I'm
   tired of watching people cringe every time it's flippantly tossed out.

   The corrolary of this is that if, as a company, you want to
   get positive attention for free from NetBSD people, you need to do one
   of those things.  Some of them are really insignificant (and, even,
   required by law)--like, admitting that you use NetBSD for example.
   We get told all the time, ``I'm sorry, but we just don't consider you
   important enough to negotiate with.''  I think it's time we started 
   telling others the same thing.  We can be a little nicer:  ``Make 
   yourself more important to us.  This is what we're interested in.  
   Reasonable?  No?  Well, have fun with our code then.''

   It's in our license that companies must disclose the use of our code.
   AFAICT, we have every right to publish the fact.  If some company 
   wants to coordinate PR's with us, I think that's really great and 
   inspiring.  If they don't, I say put them on the web page anyway.
   If they really don't want to be on the web page, then they need to 
   work out some informal way to compensate us for the publicity we lose
   by giving our informal agreement not to exercise this right.  The 
   current precedent doesn't make sense.

   In one sense, I like helping people get the most out of NetBSD.  But,
   if they expect me to beg them to use NetBSD like some kind of
   subsurvient dog, then they'd better be doing an awful lot of one of
   those three things I just mentioned.  Otherwise, 
   ``if you want System V...''

-- 
Miles Nordin / v:1-888-857-2723 fax:+1 530 579-8680
555 Bryant Street PMB 182 / Palo Alto, CA 94301-1700 / US