> JEEZ, GUYS.  WHY MUST CONSOLE EMULATION IN UNIX ALWAYS LOOK LIKE A 
> PIECE OF SHIT?  

"a piece of shit?"  i don't buy that.  I use "dumb" terminals almost
every day, and they do what they do _very well_.

> Sure, when you get X up and running, you can plug in whatever user 
> interface you like.  So what?  I want a console interface without 
> having the expense of X (both memory and diskspace).  

Ahh, but you're willing to pay other costs:
	(1) wired down kernel memory!  how many wired paged are you
		willing to waste when you're trying to compile
		something?  And when you're running X, this wired
		down code will be completely UNUSED!!!
	(2) uninterruptible operations!  when running in the kernel,
		the system is not preemptible.  that means that the
		scheduling algorithm suffers, and depending on the
		mac's interrupt architecture, can cause system
		performance to go to hell in a handcart!
	(3) less safety!  If there's a kernel bug, it'll crash
		the system.  I'd rather have a user-interface
		crash than the kernel crash.  more code -> more
		bugs.

would you like more reasons?  i can supply them!

> On the Mac, the console interface is here now.  X is still some way 
> off.  Why shouldn't the console interface be made nicer for those of us 
> who will, quite frankly, be happy with the current multi-console 
> interface and don't necessarily have the disk/memory/cpu-power/desire 
> to run X.  

If you want to improve the console interface, do so FROM A USER-LAND
PROGRAM.  don't let your 'wants' dictate what _must_ be used by others
who have no need for it.  UN*X has always been minimalist, and that's
what makes it portable to machines like the macintosh.  IF YOU WANT
TO ALWAYS USE MACOS, TAKE NETBSD OFF OF YOUR HARD DISK.

> Quite frankly, the input from the PC camp (where the console driver is 
> probably just using some 80x24 text-only mode) is not, imho, relevant.  

BULLSHIT.  when you boot a UN*X clone, you're not running MacOS any
more.  period.  You're running UNIX, which means that you play by
UN*X's rules.  We could have implemented all of the stupid features
in the world, but a little bit of thinking and foresight kept us,
and every other port out there, from doing it.

> The Mac comes with bitmapped display and nothing else - since it all 
> has to be bitmapped anyway, I say add nicer features to it.

The PMAX comes with a bitmapped display and nothing else.  You don't
see it pulling "stupid console tricks."  same with the amiga, and
hell, they've got one hell of a lot better graphics heritage then
the mac does!

If you want to add "random stuff" like this, it _will_ be done
in user-land.

> The only 
> excuse I think is acceptable is memory-profile - don't waste my 
> precious RAM sticking EMACS (for example) into the kernel.

Even if somebody else out there wants to use emacs?  hell,
emacs is a hell of a lot more useful than a menu bar is!

> If people really complain, please make it a linkable module so I can 
> have a real console while others have their crappy little vt-emulator.
> 
> Death to the vt100!

Bzzt.  More work was done using VT100's than has probably ever
been done using macintoshes.  the VT100 has always been more
reliable than a macintosh...

If you want a "real console," as you'd defined it, put it in
user-land.  period.




cgd

------------------------------------------------------------------------------