OK, to not occupy too much place, I'm responding in one place (meanwhile
moving to proper list):


Wouter Klouwen:

>> xterm is for X11 - didn't you notice, that I was asked for console?
WK> It works nonetheless.

Just partially. It has proper color conversion, but still there remains
problem with some F-keys, and some apps (f.e. ekg) just locks up. and I must
kill it from the root account.

WK> What's the point of console if you want to use a mouse?

I prefer console mode - and mouse is comfortable just for "copy & paste". I
know, that screen has similar functionality using keyboard - but for
occasional c&p gpm was very comfortable. And of course, I'm using sometimes
X11 too - so, why not use the mouse, when it's close to keyboard?

WK> I have yet to see any questions or remarks specific to current-users.
WK> You should be using netbsd-users.

Ouch. Sorry.

WK> If you ask proper questions [..]

Does there really exist something like "improper question" anyway?


Paul Goyette:

PG> And why is this "problem" a problem of NetBSD and its maintainers, and
PG> not a problem of the badly-created applications? 

As I wrote, it's my first step with NetBSD. I'm not quite sure, whether
it's really a problem with badly written app, or perhaps improperly prepared
package - or perhaps just my fault? Additionally, I thought, the list is read
by the package-maintainers as well.

PG> In whose opinion is your suggested replacement better?

Yesterday I made quick search throught some of the netbsd-related lists - I
found, that f.e. some people reported some dependency-checking problems using
pkgsrc. Of course, I didn't make detailed comparison among deb and pkgsrc
systems (perhaps "yet").

OK, never mind - I understand, the things aren't going in such direction.

PG> if your other O/S is so much better, use it and leave us alone!

So, the only option is "either you'll drop `you other OS-es' - or leave us
alone"?


Sean Davis:

SD> I have, but in your case - you've obviously got a working keyboard,
SD> mouse, and display good enough for watching TV - I don't see why you
SD> would prefer console.

It's better suitable for work, it's less eye-tormenting - just in my private,
humble opinion. I prefer it, unless I must really switch to graphic mode.

SD> It wasn't broken by NetBSD, it was broken by the joe developers.

Of course joe itself wasn't broken not by NetBSD team - but I thought, it's
a problem with some wrong settings in terminal definitions rather.

SD> I don't remember the setting, but I'm willing to bet that if you turned
SD> off syntax highlighting, the "OOPS"'s would stop appearing.

As I wrote already, I made it by choosing different terminal: wsvt25

SD> When you're suggesting that, in essence, we turn NetBSD into Linux,
SD> probably more often than not, yes.

I've just asked for some solutions, and reported some problems.

SD> If it needs fixing by the package maintainer, you need to be talking to
SD> them, not trolling current-users.

General question to everybody: is it allowed at all to report problems on
NetBSD-related list and/or ask for solutions - or perhaps any word about
problems found while using NetBSD will be considered as "trolling"?

SD> my suggestion would be something along these lines [..]

Thanks, that was I was looking for. I'll try it.


Zafer Aydogan:

ZA> And yes you're right Zgbigniew, the whole Term thing is a pain in the
ZA> ass. Especially the whole Keyboard thing with Delete, Insert, Pos1 etc.

Well, correcting the code table for one of the terminal definitions
shouldn't take longer than several hours. But presently I'm simply not sure,
which one is broken, and which one just works differently, than I was
expected.

I'm wondering, if the "linux" terminal is properly defined - for the
comparison purposes I ran the same apps I'm using under Debian - I think,
the terminal type is known to that apps, so the behaviour should be the
same. But it isn't.

ZA> Yes, I prefer bash aswell. And sometimes I don't understand, why NetBSD
ZA> is rejecting a 300K shell, but importing other things with a few MB to
ZA> the main system.

Surprisingly, just noticed the same. The same people, which are against
"bloat", are wondering, why I prefer text mode. (men: it's no "trolling" ;)

ZA> But I just built a package for you, which you can download from here:

Wow! It's very nice indeed. Thanks a lot! :)


Sascha Retzki:

SR> "xterm" ? "screen" ? I use Xfree on systems with such applications,
SR> except of lynx, of which I do not recall problems, tho.

Both have proper colours in text mode - and, unfortunately, both have
problems with f.e. first 4 F-keys (just try mp3blaster). I mean: I cannot
make something like "export TERM=screen". Only when I run screen, and then
the desired application - it works OK in the end (almost OK: I mean <Delete>,
">" and "right arrows" problems).

SR> Can't say much about that one, but moused/wsmoused (the latter sits on
SR> top of Wsdisplay, but I +think+ (heh) you need to recompile the kernel
SR> for support for it) do the same thing. Can you be more specific?

- sometimes It doesn't run, until I switch to any other console.
- I cannot just select single word with doubleclick, like it was possible
  with gpm
- it hasn't "sticky" selection - one has to "target" very precisely the text
  region to copy
- it doesn't leave the selection mark (highlight) on the screen, which was
  helpful, because one can easily verify in this way, that the selection was
  properly made. The highlighting doesn't need to be permanent - but perhaps
  for 1 second after I release the mouse button after selecting

Working from within "screen", I ran lynx. When selecting large part of the
text from the screen, wsmoused just locked up, making screen blinking. I had
to break it with <Control>-<C>, but it stopped to blink, only when I switched
to other console. After return to the former one, I found an error on the
screen: "WSDISPLAYIO_ADDSCREEN: Device busy" (top)

>> ...and so on. What does mean this "OOPS", inserted directly before some of
>> the "extraordinary" characters?
 
SR> Application-depended.
SR> Does that happen after X seconds, each time you press a (specific) key?

It can be seen immediately after I'm opening the file (while editing:
immediately, when I press f.e. #-key). As I wrote, one of the possible
remediums is switching to wsvt25 (or xterm).

SR> Oh hell no. The *basic* system just need the essentials, basic things.
SR> ZSH, bash, all those are bloated shells [..] not in the *basic* system.
SR> That is like, asking for kde *and* gnome in the base install [..]

Hmmm, isn't it somewhat different, to add a shell just 150 KB bigger - and to
install the whole KDE environment?

SR> Your card is not supported? "dmesg | grep bktr" searches for the only
SR> card which is supported. You must provide more information ;) .

Of course, it is. It gives output with fxtv. I'll try to compile xmradio
anyway.


Julio M. Merino:

JM> I always use screen when in the console, and everything works
JM> wonderfully inside it (TERM=screen, which is set automatically).

Yes, you're right - when running "screen", and only then using text-mode
apps. What is the reason, that only in such case almost all (not checked
quite all yet, anyway...) seem to work OK?

JM> Obviously, setting TERM=linux manually won't work.

Why "obviously"?
 
JM> Before I discovered and got addicted to the screen tool, I used to set
JM> the terminal type to wsvt25l1, which worked quite well.  But really, try
JM> screen.  You won't regret it.

Yes, you're right (still except f.e. the <Del> key...). But shouldn't be
rather available (I mean, the proper terminal settings, not the screen
itself) directly after logon?

JM> Have you selected the correct keymap?

Thanks, I'll examine this.

JM> http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/wscons/#keyboard-speed

Missed it. Thanks.

JM> Can you say why it's so uncomfortable and "much less than gpm"?  I know
JM> it has its problems, but still.

See above.
 
JM> BTW, I hope you mean wsmoused, not moused, as they are very different
JM> things.

Yes, wsmoused.

JM> Did the kernel recognize your card?  (Search for bktr in dmesg).

No, it's not hardware. I'll try to examine it closer - I asked in hope,
that someone has similar problems earlier.

JM> This looks like trolling; you don't specify any reason about why it
JM> should be replaced, and just say "replace it with debian's one".

As I wrote, I noticed similar opinions on the lists already.

JM> Uncomfortable?

Seem to be really less comfortable indeed. As an example: one of the small
things, that I like with deb, is that before installing anything it reports
the packages, which will be installed/upgraded, and the overall size, that
will be occupied/freed. And then asks, whether it should proceed, or not.

JM> Less functional?

OK, as I wrote, didn't make detailed comparison yet. My overall feeling is,
that f.e. it's slower than deb-pkgsys - but it can depend on the different
filesystem (using reiserfs under Debian) and different hardware (other
machine).


Thanks for all the tips!
-- 
				pozdrawiam / regards

						Zbigniew Baniewski