Subject: Re: Somewhat disappointed NetBSD newbie
To: None <current-users@netbsd.org>
From: Sascha Retzki <lantis@askarali.info>
List: current-users
Date: 03/27/2005 17:13:52
On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 03:34:33PM +0200, Zbigniew Baniewski wrote:
> Hallo,
>
Hi,
> I've installed recently NetBSD 2.0, and I'm somewhat disappointed, that
> despite the many years of development it suffers from such basic things like
> f.e. terminal settings. Perhaps somebody could help me with the problems
> listed?
>
> List of questions and improvement suggestions:
>
> 1. Choosing a proper terminal type is a problem. Simply choosing "linux" is
> not a solution, because either I've got in return proper colors, but the
> screen gets ruined (ekg) - or still having proper colors, there aren't any
> "frames" (semigraphic) anymore (mp3blaster) and some function keys aren't
> working. It's very rare case, when the colours and the screen building
> both are OK (lynx).
>
> Probably the most "stable" terminal type would be "wsvt25" - which doesn't
> "forget" the semigraphics existence, gives F-keys quite normal
> functionality, and gives _almost_ normal text colors. But not quite - "warm"
> colours - like yellow and red - vanished from applications screens (although
> "colourls" gives f.e. red in return). And, unfortunately, some apps (like ekg)
> are black-white.
>
> How can I fix it? Perhaps there is even better choice than wsvt25?
"xterm" ? "screen" ? I use Xfree on systems with such applications, except of
lynx, of which I do not recall problems, tho.
>
> 2. I can't understand, why <Delete> key behaves exactly just like
> <Backspace>. I prefer to have <Delete>, instead of just another <Backspace>,
> placed very close to the proper one. Is it possible?
I think you have to bind the key delete to the delete event, however I think it
is shell-depended and is done in their config.
In my ksh/x11, <del> is ~. I did not care enough yet to fix that.
>
> 3. Some keys seem to work strange. F.e. running "mp3blaster" I noticed, that
> I cannot raise volume using ">" key. The similar thing occurs when running
> "aumix" - I cannot raise volume using "right arrow". In both cases I can
> only lower the volume. It's not any hardware/mixer problem. I can raise the
> volume using the ciffer keys. How can it be fixed?
>
That is a TERM-problem, too, imho.
> 4. Haven't found any way to set the key-repeat speed. Does there exist one?
>
That should be part of the terminal-api called wscons/wsdisplay. Maybe have a
look at the wsconsctl-manpage. Again, I never bothered ;) .
> 5. Trying several other terminal types, occasionally I've got "core dumped"
> in return, when trying to run some apps. Seems, it sometimes depends on the
> chosen terminal type.
>
Interesting, but that is most probably a problem in the Application. I think.
> 6. Functionality of the "moused", when going to "copy & paste" text, is much
> less than the one of very old - well known from Linux - gpm. moused is very
> uncomfortable, but - as I can see - the only available at the moment. Or
> perhaps someone has ported gpm to NetBSD?
>
Can't say much about that one, but moused/wsmoused (the latter sits on top of
Wsdisplay, but I +think+ (heh) you need to recompile the kernel for support for
it) do the same thing. Can you be more specific?
> 7. Using my favourite text editor - joe - I've got strange errors directly
> in edited texts, when executing it from within vt100, vt220 and other "first
> choice" terminal types. F.e. when editing .profile file, I've got in some
> places within the text:
>
> OOPS# $NetBSD: dot.profile,v
> [..]
> PATH=OOPS$HOME/bin:/bin:/sbin:/us
> [..]
> EXINIT=OOPS'set autoindent'
>
> ...and so on. What does mean this "OOPS", inserted directly before some of
> the "extraordinary" characters?
>
Application-depended.
Does that happen after X seconds, each time you press a (specific) key?
> No such problem, when wsvt25 is set as terminal type.
>
> 8. <Home> and <End> keys are working properly in command-line also only when
> wsvt25 is chosen (but haven't tried really all available terminal types).
>
The same as above with delete vs. backspace.
> 9. Why, as default shells, are chosen quite obsolete and uncomfortable (and
> even buggy - csh) shells like csh, ksh and sh - and the much more functional
> tcsh, bash and zsh needs to be installed additionally? I think, it should be
> quite opposite.
>
Oh hell no. The *basic* system just need the essentials, basic things. ZSH,
bash, all those are bloated shells, with lots of stuff. You may want those
features, that is ok; but not in the *basic* system. That is like, asking for
kde *and* gnome in the base install, because TWM does not rock (by default).
> 10. It's curious, that until today there isn't ready internalization of
> console fonts. Found some "workarounds" for installation of ISO-8859-2
> characters (f.e. the one from netbsd.cz site), but when made it - I lost the
> entire semigraphic. Why not import the whole thing directly from FreeBSD?
>
Localizaion and i18n is more work than you think. And there are many other,
more important tasks.
> 11. Such essential utility like mc should be available as ready-made,
> precompiled package. vfu isn't any equivalent for mc.
>
I strongly disagree it is "essential", see answer number 9. It is a curses-
frontend to a shell and replaces manpages. If packageX is not ready-made,
then there was not enough interest, it was vulnerable, or not compile-able
at release-time; All that is package stuff. Note that there may be applications
that run mostly on the unix(r)-api, but use #!/bin/bash in their configure
script, or just work on linux otherwisely, and that the package management
people either fix that by a patch in pkgsrc or by mailling the author of the
software. However, that makes the process much longer.
> 12. xmradio utility seem to be broken (it dumps core all the time). Didn't
> compile it from sources - it does need some pounds of dev-libraries.
>
More information needed. Recompile the application with "-g" in the CFLAGS
environment-variable (see pkgsrc-guide, should be in there), provide a back-
trace and similar.
> 13. Can't watch any TV using xawtv. Didn't find the reason. Perhaps someone
> knows, what's going on?
>
Your card is not supported? "dmesg | grep bktr" searches for the only card
which is supported. You must provide more information ;) .
> 15. Couldn't it be much better to replace the whole package system with more
> functional one - perhaps to adopt the debian packaging system? Why keep the
> uncomfortable and less functional pkg? Just because NetBSD "should have
> it's own, different" packaging system? Why invent that wheel anew?
>
I do not know how bloated APT is. To answer your question, you are sure
that APT was invented *before* BSD-PKG? And another one, our pkg-system has
problems, trying to fix that, but uhm we don't have enough people, I guess;
or there are too much problems. Package *management* is way more complicated
then you might think.
> 16. Does there exist any JRE for NetBSD (as plugin for Firefox) - but not
> for using in "linux-emulation mode"?
>
I think so, there is the http://pkgsrc-wip.sf.net project, after you untarred
pkgsrc to /usr/pkgsrc, do:
cd /usr
cvs -d:pserver:anoncvs@anoncvs.sf.net:/cvsroot/pkgsrc-wip co wip
and it should download the WIP-tree (Work In Progress). Maybe there is gpm?
Somebody told me there is native java stuff, I did not care enough to look.
> 17. Perhaps somebody can tell me the way to transfer entire installed NetBSD
> from one hdd to another (it's installed together with FreeDOS and NetBSD
> bootmanager)? Or even better: to make copy on the CD - and to install it back
> from such backup-CD to other hdd?
tar(1) maybe? Like, tar czpf mynetbsd.tgz /mnt (assuming you mounted your
NetBSD-installation on /mnt)
Thank you very much for asking those questions, I guess that 99% of ppl simply
reinstall Linux/Windows(tm)/Whatever. Sometimes, tho, you need to provide more
information about failures. Of course it might be hard for a "newbie" to know
what information is needed, but you will learn...
Sascha Retzki