Subject: Re: Yet another BSD, is it necessary?
To: None <current-users@NetBSD.ORG>
From: Guenther Grau <>
List: current-users
Date: 10/05/1995 20:43:02

> I won't get into details here, it's of no use.  But I like to discuss
> the somethings relating to this dispute.

Yeah, that's a great idea. I wanted to say something as well regarding this
issue for quite some time.

> As I believe this is a bad thing for the NetBSD project as a whole I'd
> like that this splinter-project did not happen.  Therefore I'd like
> core to go to extreme lengths to not make this happen.  I'd put this
> work on a higher priority than 1.1, when it's ready, it's ready.  I
> also ask Theo to reconsider his last positions in this dispute for
> our, the users, sake.

Well said! I think there are some other people out there developing stuff 
for NetBSD and complaining about their changes not being integrated for
a long time. I think we have to find a new (more open) way to grant more people
access to the force aehh src :-). I don't want everybody to have write
access to the NetBSD source tree but I think that a few more people
sould be granted access. This will speed up integration of fixes to PRs
into the tree as well as remove some of the workload of this integration work
from the core development team. I guess that most of the core team members
would be happy to have more time to invest in developing something new
than to fix bugs or just integrate other people's bug fixes.
So, how should we go about this?
My proposal is, that a few well known developers should be offered access or
it should be granted to them on their request. I don't want to define the term 
well known developers in more depth, because it should be decided by common
sense. I'd like to give a few examples of who I see as a well known developers.
I would see Michael L. Hitch as a well known developer for the Amiga tree,
because he has done a huge amount a development work (Thanx again for this
Michael!). I don't know if he realy wants access to the CVS, but I would grant
him access right away, because he has the necessary knowledge and knows what he
is doing. Another example is Niklas, the poster of the original message,
because he has been actively wokring on the Amiga port, and is now doing some
IMHO good work on the general sources. He is also actively working on the GNU
tools so the next release of the GNU tools should work right out of the box on
NetBSD. This is just to name a few. I wouldn't grant some newbies access to
CVS just because they want it. People should have submitted quite a few PRs and
fixes so that we know that they know about the programming conventions and
have good technical skills.

> Another thing that I'd like to bring up, is that the notion of people
> with CVS access should be seen as spokesmen for the NetBSD project.
> Good coders are not necessarily good PR-guys.  The only requirements
> valid on people wanting CVS access should be technical merits IMO.

I agree on this one. See above.

> Third, I'd like the community to get more power when dealing with PR
> issues and the making of requirements of people with certain positions
> in the NetBSD project.  Central authority can be really bad sometimes.
> Ideally, this power would come from a humble listening attitude of the
> people making up the NetBSD project, not by formal voting.

Yes, I agree completly with that, but how should it be achieved?
My proposal above is based on the common sense (of the core members,
or of the NetBSD community?). You had probaly the same thing in mind...

> I had to say this, I will be silent for a while now.  If people have
> opinions we have to find a better forum for this than current-users.

Which forum could be better than current-users? As long as we don't get
personal, current-users is the right place to discuss these issues.

> Proposals?  The forum must reach core and the users, otherwise it's
> wasted.  I'm afraid my effort is futile, as there seem to be quite
> some pride involved in this dispute, but I had to try, at least, as
> I'm still a believer of democracy and humility.

I do so as well, especially with more educated people being on this
list, it should be possible to solve the problem reach a proper agreement.

I don't want to bring this issue up again, because I almost lost all my
hopes on this, but I would still _LOVE_ to see a merger between NetBSD
and FreeBSD, and definitely not another version of *BSD*. Maybe, with a
more open access to the src, we can work towards a merger, because I
hate to see all the work duplicated. We port something they developed
to NetBSD, they port something we developed. Both projects port stuff
from Lite and Linux and other free software to the systems, ....
Sorry, I had to shout this, because this situation seems so dump and
unneccesary to me ... sigh

> Well If I hear nothing, I will accept the fact that people want Theo
> to start a new project.  But do you?

Nope, definitely not. See my reasoning above.